Birmingham City 1 West Ham Utd 0 (12/12/09)

[Chuck D]

Chuck - if this is getting boring for me then I dread to think what others think. You know my views on our defense, you disagree because you don't believe Zola is fit for the job - we could do this forever.

As for his position, is it your opinion that he didn't want to keep Bellamy, Neill, Collins etc.? You and I both know why they all left - money (or lack of). it's obvious no English club would give us players on installments so we have have to go abroad a do whatever deals we could do there. I'm sure like you he would have wanted to add true quality to the squad but with little money and no credit in the UK that was impossible.

Injuries to Ashton, Dyer, Gabbidon, Illunga, Cole, Collison, Tomkins, Davenport, Behrami, Boa Morte, Noble, Hines and Jiminez have hampered team selection.

The only outcry when a player was sold was Bellamy so hindsight is a wonderful thing eh?

You say Duckers rolled him over, and that he should have walked. How would that have improved our lot? What benefit would our team have seen from that?

Boring for you, yet you keep em coming?

I love the way you have put Ashton in that list. That isnt positive thinking, its insanity.

Davenport, a player who Zola couldnt wait to be rid of last season, and was training with the kids has hampered team selection?

Gabbidn and Dyer have barely played for two years, who was stupid enough to include them in the suad as regulars?

As for money, I'd have preffered to take another free transfer striker, and keep Collins (a player who you know I dont really rate) rather than spunk the money on a Serie B no mark.

Plenty of players joined premiership clubs on loan this summer, without the need for expensive transfer fees, or payments in instalments. Instead we wasted our paltry budget.

How would a manager who I dont thnk is up to the job leaving the club have helped us?

Maybe a better, more repsected manager would have explained to CB Holdings in no uncertain terms that the players were not good enough, and we would be involved in a relegation battle? Instead of telling Scott we'd be top six?

Who knows? Maybe CB would have sussed that no one was stupid enough to take the job and sold the club earlier to one of the interested parties? You are so negative sometimes.

[hammerdivone]

You are so negative sometimes.

:lol:

[QuintonNimoy]

The question is, "is this what he signed up for"?

"This" is in some ways his own making. He wanted a smaller squad, and continental players to play a continental system. He got what he wanted. Be careful what you wish for.

People did tend to come out with this kind of thing when BG went bust. I don't recall anyone wishing for an insolvent billionaire, and I doubt Zola would have been thinking let's get rid of all the good players first so I can start with Spector and build from there. I'm pretty sure it's just another bit of the wordplay that Dux relies on so heavily, get Zola into a corner about the small squad then use it to justify every sale as what he wanted. I'm suprised your happy to play Dux's game for him.

He has got to make a decision, as you mention, we dont know who does the transfers etc. If Zola didnt want Jiminez (which we are told he did, with all that chatting on the phone about the diamond)etc, then he shouldnt have agreed to take a job with a DOF.

What we do know is that players have gone, and been replaced by (mostly) th wrong people in the wrong positions. We signed players from Serie A/B who (even when if they finally succeed) take their time getting there.

Maybe he accepts that place? In Italy it's par for the course for the manager to be constantly undermined and put under horrible pressure by all sorts of political crap in the upper levels of the club, not least by the support as well. The DOF is all part of that culture, which views the manager a little differently. It wouldn't suprise me if Zola considers himself to be a technical professional with a specific role to fulfill, which is coaching the team, not making and taking responsibility for long term decisions.

Someone pointed out earlier Zola keeps saying "They gave everything, I can't fault the players" and this is essentially code that they aren't good enough, sign me some new ones. It's not overt criticism but the message is there.

f*** knows what Dux was going on about at the infamous BBQ. I can't put much stock by whatever b*llocks he came out with I'm afraid. Maybe Zola was drunk, or maybe it was Duckers hearing things.

If he is being reamed, he should - in my opinion - be big enough to say "this aint what I signed up for" and leave. Its exactly what Curbishley did.

Well, I'd offer the third option that it's not his ultimate responsibility to sign players and mould the squad beyond offerring his opinion, and that is what he signed up for because in Italy at least it wouldn't be strange to him. I think you can make tactical criticisms a lot of which I'm on board with, I just don't think you can be definitive about the whole state of the squad and how much of it's down to Zola. Another Duxism - nothing happens without his permission - could well simply consist of reminding him he doesn't contractually get a say, or offerring him a hobsons choice. If we get a bad January I would wonder why he'd stick around to suffer afterwards.

I think we've had a very tough start to the season, and shortly we'll have the opportunity to turn things around, but it might get worse before it gets better. How many key players are going to be available for the long run in is the big question, along with whether there really are any better candidates than Zola willing and available.

[Chuck D]

Quinton

I understand your point re "Italian Culture".

Sadly, we dont live in Livorno - if we did, we'd have known how average Diamante was - so it matters not a jot to me what they do in Italy. As I have pointed out a few times - mostly to Jon - the culture of DOF has yet to work in English football, and this is another example of why it doesnt.

Nani doesnt put his head above the parapet, and Zola glibly goes on smiling.

Plus of course, Zola played a massive part of his career in England, and (should) understands what is expected of a manager of an English team, and those around him.

He should know that managers are called to account over which players they sign, who gets injured, what the tactics are etc.

For Pardew, Roeder, Curbs, and Harry, whatever happened was down to them. Now the injuries are nothing to do with Zola, and neither are the players?

In which case - assuming we can allow him to be absolved of these responsibilities, and thus we much also take coaching away, as he will have coaches to do that - that leaves his team selection, and tactics.

Is that how we shoud judge him?

[QuintonNimoy]

Well, it all has to be judged according to context doesn't it.

Zola's inexperienced, he was probably cheap (until Clarke came into things maybe? More brilliance from Scotters?) I think he's making some rookie mistakes which is to be expected and I don't think he's expecting to control everything. He wasn't my first choice, but can we go back and get Laudrup or Donadoni now? I'd run a mile if I were them. Given that upper management must have known what would happen it was a major strategic mistake to lose Curbishley (given his record of surviving on a shoestring) unless they knew our money was no good in the UK any more, and then compounded this by not getting in a Hodgson type figure or similar. Experience and contacts are vital in our situation.

I'm thinking nowadays Nani's appointment may have been more to do with tapping a market where we can actually spend money because the Italians don't know how skint we are. This does leave us knowing the 75% of players you bring in will need at least a year to settle in, and half those will be crap.

Dux has chosen the route he has in the backdrop of near financial meltdown, some of which he's contributed to. I wouldn't describe his performance as Churchillian. He does have to handle a bigger proportion of the blame than others because it would appear his conduct has led to some obvious costly failures - Curbs' contract for example.

If Zola is keeping a clear head and doing his best while behaviing professionally in public I think that's probably better than kicking up a fuss and claiming armageddon is upon us in the press. I think he's saying as much as he dares without bluntly criticising the players, probably because his expectations of getting reinforcements is low and our actual league target is only a couple of points away. Presumably he thinks makig negative statements will hurt morale and he doesn't have much chance of getting positive changes in January.

So I'd say Zola is probably not getting the best possible performances out of the team right now given their limitations but I don't think he's being completely inept. The main reason for our problems in comparison to the rest of the league is the composition of the squad, and I think it's a stretch to say it's all his fault because there must also be room for improvement in the purchases we've made. Even so we should be good enough to stay up, at the moment it's a fine line.

BTW, I don't consider the DOF 'model' to really be preferable or superior to anything else that goes on in this country traditionally (as Jon seems to love all thing continental - I'm sure you're aware the comparison doesn't please me ), I do think it's relevant in assessing where Zola may see himself in the management team, and what the management team expect him to actually do though. Why have we got it? It could be another financial imperative, or it could be Dux watching Barca documentaries and getting all excited.

[Chuck D]

"Experience and contacts are vital".

I couldnt agree more.

So we get rid of the players who have played, and shown they can play in the Prem, and replace them with players that there was no need to go to the expense of signing?

We have all seen Ethers, Bowyer, Mullins, Collins et al put in Premiership performances. I've yet to see one from Jiminez, or Kovac (who turned his back on a shot againt today).

The biggest thing for me has been the "bigging up" of the team though. Stevie Wonder could see the issues we have, so how come the club couldnt? And instead spent the summer telling us how ACE we were.

[WHamZam]

You should be the chairman Chuck D. You talk sense. You haven`t got a hundred million quid hiding behind the soda, have you?

[Chuck D]

You should be the chairman Chuck D. You talk sense. You haven`t got a hundred million quid hiding behind the soda, have you?

Tragically, no. I listened to HD, and bet it all on Ashton making 15 appearances this season.

[QuintonNimoy]

"Experience and contacts are vital".

I couldnt agree more.

So we get rid of the players who have played, and shown they can play in the Prem, and replace them with players that there was no need to go to the expense of signing?

We have all seen Ethers, Bowyer, Mullins, Collins et al put in Premiership performances. I've yet to see one from Jiminez, or Kovac (who turned his back on a shot againt today).

The biggest thing for me has been the "bigging up" of the team though. Stevie Wonder could see the issues we have, so how come the club couldnt? And instead spent the summer telling us how ACE we were.

Agree with all that, I'm not defending Zola from his shortcomings, but I think there are limits on what we can specifically blame him for. I wouldn't blame him if he walked away, and someone with his record in the game (albeit Chelsea) should probably expect better. Unfortunately he's probably too nice to tell it like it is and would leave the field open for our PR machine.

[HammerMan2004]

Clarke reiterated the management's desire to focus only on the task at hand and take responsibility. "If anyone's looking to blame, they'll have to blame me. I'm the guy they brought in to help Gianfranco. He's the novice manager, just in the game but if anyone wants to point fingers, point them at me."