West Ham Utd 2 Nottingham Forest 1 (21/01/12)

Relive every moment of every first team game since the beginning of the 2005/06 season. Our archive of matchday threads originally posted in the General Discussion Forum.

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Re: West Ham v Nottingham Forest match thread

Post by Arch Dandy »

I thought Nolan was good on Saturday, he covered a lot of ground and was always in the box when he was supposed to be. He showed a decent touch and stuck to his job unlike others who wander all round the shop.
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Re: West Ham v Nottingham Forest match thread

Post by the pink palermo »

Bob - ,You've said the world and the game has changed and by implication, the role of the skipper .

Tell me what Nolan has to do to be a good skipper that Bonds didn't have to do ? Or Alvin Martin ?

When did this epiphany happen ?
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Re: West Ham v Nottingham Forest match thread

Post by Bobby Orangeboom »

the pink palermo wrote:
At home however he is exposed cruelly whenever Sam tries to stick out a team to entertain the Boleyn .
He is exposed so cruelly that he has had more shots than any other Player, is that the play of someone who is being exposed cruelly ??

I'm all for debate, but i'm sick to death of people lambasting our Players week in week out like you do, like Bristol does etc ****ing etc.

Kevin Nolan has come into a shambles of a Football Club after 3 years of ****ing appaling football that culminated in relegation and has led it to the top of the league and people like you consistently pick holes in him, i wouldn't tolerate that from a ****ing Y*d so excuse me if i am a little sharp with West Ham supporters that do it.. :thdn:
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Re: West Ham v Nottingham Forest match thread

Post by swash »

And what evidence is there from the Nolan bashers that we would be a better team without him?

Certainly nothing on the pitch to date on the rare occasion he has been absent!
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Re: West Ham v Nottingham Forest match thread

Post by swash »

the pink palermo wrote:Bob - ,You've said the world and the game has changed and by implication, the role of the skipper .

Tell me what Nolan has to do to be a good skipper that Bonds didn't have to do ? Or Alvin Martin ?

When did this epiphany happen ?
For starters in Bonds' day, most professional footballers actually put in a decent shift week after week, these days there are plenty who play just for their bank balance, and need a kick up the @rse on a regular basis.
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Re: West Ham v Nottingham Forest match thread

Post by the pink palermo »

Bobby Orangeboom wrote:He is exposed so cruelly that he has had more shots than any other Player, is that the play of someone who is being exposed cruelly ??

I'm all for debate, but i'm sick to death of people lambasting our Players week in week out like you do, like Bristol does etc f***ing etc.
Bob, I go week in week out and pays me money .I'll express an opinion as I see it . :thup:

You ignore the bits where I've written "the other week he played well - off the ball" , and latch onto the critical aspects , in a desperate attempt to stick up for him based it would seem not on his performance but on your seemingly utter hatred of Matthew Upson .

So, it's ok for you to slag off that particular ( ex) West Ham player , but anyone who dares to suggest Nolan had a shocker this Saturday is a **** are they ?

As for me "lambasting our players" week in week out ? Utter tripe .When they play well I say so .When they don't they get mild criticism from me .

The bit you are missing in the Nolan debate I'm afraid is the likes of myself , Bristol etc are not solitary voices .Plonk yourself in the Boleyn on a Saturday afternoon, and you'll hear far harsher comments .
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Re: West Ham v Nottingham Forest match thread

Post by Doc H Ball »

One thing's for sure with Nolan, he ain't gonna get better. We've got him on a 5 year contract....

I went to see the game with a Newcastle fan - (it's hard to give tickets away) - and he said he thought his legs had gone and he was far less mobile than a year ago.

However, I think his role as Captain, BFS mouthpiece and rallying point for the players is massively underrated. Bobby's right, the club hasn't had a good captain for years and he is one. He's not good enough for the first X1 on form, but he is as a character and therein lies the quandary. I sometimes wonder how we are top playing crap and how we win so many crap games. I think it is probably because I don't fully understand the inner workings of the dressing room.

I think BFS might have made it a condition when he came that we buy someone like Nolan/Barton/Davies and make them skipper -someone to impose his will over the team. Otherwise it's completely at add odds with SuGo's history in the transfer market. Nolan's salary in 2/3/4 years' time (£7.5m for 3 years) is yet another price in the Promotion At All Costs campaign that the club are fighting.

If Sullivan is Uncle Joe Stalin, then BFS is Trotsky and Nolan is Molotov. Poor old Mark Noble has become Che Guevara.
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Re: West Ham v Nottingham Forest match thread

Post by The Sherriff »

Bobby Orangeboom wrote: Yeah, i find it criminal we didn't hang on to Upson to lead us this season & kept Zola on as he smiled so well & told us how great we were in a really nice way.

I have issues with Allardyce managing our Club, but none of them are pitch related.
Bob,

Upson was the most deplorable captain, a complete coward and selfish ****. Totally unprofessional and I feel he cheated us big time.

I despise the bloke.

But hes got nothing to do with Nolans performances or contribution this season.

Nolan, is a far better captain for sure. Last season is gone though, old hat now. I’ve concerned myself with our current crop of players and our ‘stella’ signing, who I feel, along with many others, that he is detrimental to the shape or the side and his contribution doesn’t warrant inclusion. In fact I find it rather insulting that his fitness and effort is minimal and in stark contrast to his previous employment.

Again ….. and unlike yourself, I do have pitch related issues with BFS
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Re: West Ham v Nottingham Forest match thread

Post by upton o'good »

irving boleyn wrote:Upton......Bristol's opinion is not too extreme, I suggest.

I am sure it represents the thoughts of a sizeable proportion of posters, so I don't understand your tirade.
I dont think pointing out that what you paid for a player is in the past, and not something you or indeed the player himself can change now, and that some of the critriscism of Nolan is overdone counts as a tirade. I dont think he's great, i do think he's pedestrian, but he does have sonme strengths.

On saturday we started 4-4-2, and that Sam felt he had to go 4-5-1 was less to do with Nolan in the middle than Noble and Collison's inability to protect the full backs. But the'yre youth products not "prostitutes" so they dont get criticised.

If his views are your / the views of a sizeable proportion of posters.. then I suggest that says more about your lack of balance than it does about me.
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Re: West Ham v Nottingham Forest match thread

Post by Up the Junction »

Fonzie wrote:The bigger picture is what happens after this season, when we get promoted, we will be more attractive to better players, have more money and BFS will be able to create a better team/squad. The team will improve and the football will improve.
You're missing one vital component in your equation Fonzie. The opposition. They will improve tenfold.

And if you think we'll be an attractive proposition next season just because Sam has a budget of £15-20million upon promotion, I reckon you're in for a bit of a shock.
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Re: West Ham v Nottingham Forest match thread

Post by WHURS »

What is the fetish with the blood and guts players, if your not making last ditch sliding tackles or running around like a blue arsed fly you don't get noticed in a West Ham shirt anymore. Nolan was all over the pitch on saturday, making interceptions on the edge of our box then turning up in their's, the difference to most was he done all of his work on his feet rather than playing in the mud.

Some people seem to be turning up at games with pre-concieved ideas about how they are going to see certain players perform or how they think we will play the game. We didn't go any longer than at any time in the last half a dozen years on saturday, but as soon as Reid put his boot through a clearance, it was all "here we go again long ball sh*t", but every one just seemed to miss the times Tomkins walked the ball out or it was passed out through the midfield, don't get me wrong were desperate for some natural width or just someone in the middle to actually carry the ball 10 yards and commit some of oposition players before laying it off.

People will remember what thay want to, and at the moment they seem to be looking for the negative.
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Re: West Ham v Nottingham Forest match thread

Post by Denbighammer »

Up the Junction wrote:You're missing one vital component in your equation Fonzie. The opposition. They will improve tenfold.

And if you think we'll be an attractive proposition next season just because Sam has a budget of £15-20million upon promotion, I reckon you're in for a bit of a shock.
I disagree to a large extent UTJ, some of the opposition will improve tenfold over what we're facing this year (i.e. Man city etc.). However, there is a lot of midtable dross in the Premiership - the fact we bobbed around in that area for the last two seasons before this one whilst being totally ***** should tell us that.

Do you not think, with a couple of quality additions we would at least hold our own for a year and give ourselves something to build on for the future? The addition of a modern-day Okocha, Djorkaeff or Campo would make such a difference, plus a couple of players cherry picked from relegated Premiership outfits like Wigan or near-miss Championship sides like Leeds and we'd more than hold our own in the WBA/QPR/Wolves/Stoke/Everton mire that exists below the 'glamour boys'.

My big worry is that we don't go up and the likes of Collison, Noble, Green, Tomkins, Baldock and Cole all say "f*** this, I'm off" and we end up even further behind in our development as a football club than we are now.
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Re: West Ham v Nottingham Forest match thread

Post by Coledinho »

Nolan is a player who relies on width and creativity from the midfield behind him. Its well and truly established we have none of these qualities in our 11 atm. Why do people expect Nolan to play above and beyond when we arnt playing a way that suits his style whatsoever. Its like throwing Sam Baldock in a lone role and complaining when he isnt holding the ball up. Its why I truly dont believe unlike some that Sam doesnt want to play this current formation and lineup. He wants width (why bid for Miyachi and Townsend for if he doesnt), he wants more attacking players (Rhodes etc). He just cant get it

Nolan is disadvantaged most by our teams pitfalls. Im not expecting him to do much until we get some decent delivery into the wide areas and start to play with some width. Unfortunately all our width is injured (Bentley, O'Neill, Taylor and to a lesser extent Faubert), has been injured (Baldock) or really has failed to live up to expectations (Sears going backwards, Demel being injured all the time). Next season id hope we play a 4-4-1-1 with alot of attack from the wide areas with 3 players replaced in the wide areas. Would go all out for Victor Moses and Diame from Wigan, 12 mill+ for the two of them combined. Would also make a loan move for a Taiwo/Bertrand/Rose/Olsson and let Potts develop over the next few years. Buy a good attacking RB and a new striker uptop and things look a hell of alot different. Say next year we went in with

Almunia
RB Tomkins Reid Bertrand
Moses Noble Diame Taylor
Nolan
New ST

Just imagine how much better that is going to be and look. Fact is alot of people cant and wont admit a majority of todays 11 wont be around next year. Its been set up that way and it happens with all newly promoted teams nowadays. Care to look at QPR 11 compared to this time last year, what about even Norwich and Swansea. All these teams make 5/6/7 changes and we wont be any different. If we are we will go straight back down
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Re: West Ham v Nottingham Forest match thread

Post by bristolhammerfc »

Bob,

I think what Nolan is asked to do which is to lead on the pitch and score goals he has shown in bursts that he does well. I have consistently said so. I have also acknowledged that Upson was poor as captain.

I want a leader to do more than the basics. I want a leader to show these kids like Montano etc that there is no free ride in the first team and that if they apply themselves and work hard they will start, if they let their own standards slip they wont. Its a standard that every player should be applying and a leader should show by example.

I want a leader to be man enough to admit when their own performance is not good. I expect the manager to show that any player but especially the captain will be taken off or not start if their performance is not high. Fair enough?

I have said that if we start with a diamond set up, Nolan will be the best player to fit that formation.

I have also said that in a 4-4-2 his lack of pace compromises those around him and is a key element in the reason behind us playing 4-5-1 at home and some of the negative football. I have backed this up by using stats to show that he has the lowest assists of any midfielder in the team. Something you can't have when playing 4-4-2. I have looked at the stats saying our strikers don't convert as many chances as they should. I have argued that when a midfielder is not supplying assists, it usually ends up with a lone attacker shooting on the turn from the edge of the box. With a midfielder that gives good assists, it should follow that the ball is being played to feet inside the box.

So for the record, is Nolan a good captain? In some aspects yes, he keeps the team focused. In some aspects no. He doesn't lead by example. Could he be a good forward midfielder? In a 4-5-1 yes, in a diamond yes, in a 4-4-2 not in my opinion.

Should we have more options? Yes. In my opinion Sam hamstrung himself and the team by signing Nolan on such a big deal, he could have asked to loan him. We spent most of the transfer budget on one player for possibly two formations. So his fee, whilst not his fault is relevant to the squad we have now. His wages prevent us from bringing in more loan players. So again its relevant.

I hope that makes it clear why, when Collison gets pulled up for a stupid act, I expect Nolan to be apologising publically when he stamps on someone, he didn't. When Sam criticises Carew for not taking chances or Baldock, I expect him to criticise the players that should be creating them for them, he doesn't. Nolan gets a free ride because of the old mates connection. I want him to behave like a captain and set an example. If he does that I have no issues.
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Re: West Ham v Nottingham Forest match thread

Post by Turns to Stone »

Kevin Nolan should have already scored 15 goals this season. He gets into some fantastic positions beyond the striker, and I personally think that with Taylor playing week-in-week-out and with some pace on the right-hand side, we wouldn't even be having this debate, because the football would be better, Nolan would have score 14 goals due to increased chances and we'd all just be in the Snug chatting about Hambrosia Stu's barbecued chicken.

Frankly though, he hasn't. He's missed some sitters, and the pay-off is that does he bring enough to the side etc when he's not scoring goals.

Personally, I think he scores enough goals to be in the side. I also think that next season, his 8 - 10 goals from midfield will be a hell of a lot more important (if we are in the Premier League) than his goals have been this season. His wages are relevant to a certain extent. But, again, I would say that Allardyce saw him as crucial in aiding our promotion push. At this point, we're top of the league, so Allardyce has been proved correct. Where it falls down is that many of us think that just promotion isn't enough. And to a certain extent I do share that.

I also think that this league is tougher than certain posters have given it credit for, and also that by losing 20 odd players, the job has been harder than a few on here give Sam credit for.

The difficulty though, is where we draw the line. I've seen plenty of posters on here call Sam out of order for not 'respecting the fans enough', I've also seen posters call Allardyce out of order for not respecting 'the West Ham way' enough. But in all honesty, were I Allardyce, and had I spent the last 5 years as an outsider looking in at West Ham, I think I'd be a little bit pissed off to see fans turning on me so quickly into my spell...especially as I was top of the league.

I mean, how many of our more recent managers have 'respected us'. Was Curbs respecting us when he spuffed a load of money up the wall on 4 and 5 year contracts for players that would destroy us as a football club, was he respecting us by walking out when a club that he had been instrumental in bankrupting tried to tighten it's belt, and then was he respectful to West Ham fans when he took us to court and won £3m off us, despite having been implicit in ludicrous spending whilst here (and I know he wasn't as guilty as Eggy and the like, but it's like Redknapp at Pompey. Just because you're not the worst offender, doesn't mean you're not an offender). What about the people who kept Duckers employed after costing the club £30m? And then what about Zola when he was waiving at the Chelsea support? What about the fact that Zola somehow managed to send West Ham teams out without any sort of fight, or heart or anything else for a full half a season. And then Uncle Avi? When he wasn't busy sleeping with prostitutes, or taking Yom Kippur off, he was busy playing centre-backs at left-back, and e-mailing us all that everything will all be okm that we're playing well, and that we'll turn the corner. And then of course there's the owners. The 'West Ham fans'. The West Ham fans who are 2 years away from selling our ground, and who sacked a manager within 6 months of arriving, paying him a fortune to leave and replacing him with an even worse manager - then there was the O'Neill saga. Not only embarrassing, but hugely damaging.

So now, after all that, when we're sitting top of the league, 6 months into a manager's first spell at the club. In a season which has seen us not only begin to claw back some of the spirit and fight that has been lacking for the last 2 years, (thanks in part at least to our oft-discussed skipper) and have begun to start to look like a side who at least understands the term 'defending' or 'organised'.

After all that, we, the much-maligned supporters of this club, who have watched disaster after disaster unfold at our club for the last 5 years, who have watched open-mouthed and silent as the likes of Jorabchiaan, Duckers, Ljungberg, Upson, Dyer, Curbs, Eggy, Terry Brown, The Biscuit Baron (who's name escapes me), Kovac and on and on and on the list goes. A list of people who have brought us to our knees. And now, with us sitting at the top of the league, every week...the same manager gets asked about 'The West Ham way'.

Frankly, I'd feel like kicking someone on the balls if they kept asking me that.

Yes, I know it's not pretty. But you know what. Last season it wasn't very pretty and we were going backwards. The wages were going up, the team was going down. This season, it's not pretty again, but you know what....we're moving forwards. Forwards towards the Premier League. Forwards towards something approaching a sensible wage bill. Forwards to the possibility of once again plying our trade with the best in the country. And to be honest, that is, at least in part down to our manager.

Now, yes I am under 40. And yes, maybe I wasn't born in 1980, and maybe I was only 5 when he finished 3rd in the top flight, but I was there when we drew with Man Utd in 1994 to give Blackburn the title. I was at Highbury when Zamora took the piss out of Sol Campbell, I was at the Millenium Stadium when Steven Gerrard broke my heart. And to be honest, if we want to see these sorts of things again, we need to get promoted. In the summer, when 23 players left, I didn't think we'd get that this year. And I thought it would get harder next year if we didn't. So whilst I'm not loving it...I certainly think that we're improving. And for now, that's ok.

But do I think Allardyce is being disrespectful? You know what, I think he's being a hell of a lot less disrespectful to us than most of our employees have been to us for the last 5 years. And he's not getting very much credit for it. So he's having a moan. Just like I would....in fact, just like I did.

Moan over.
Last edited by Turns to Stone on Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: West Ham v Nottingham Forest match thread

Post by Coledinho »

bristolhammerfc wrote:Bob,

I think what Nolan is asked to do which is to lead on the pitch and score goals he has shown in bursts that he does well. I have consistently said so. I have also acknowledged that Upson was poor as captain.

I want a leader to do more than the basics. I want a leader to show these kids like Montano etc that there is no free ride in the first team and that if they apply themselves and work hard they will start, if they let their own standards slip they wont. Its a standard that every player should be applying and a leader should show by example.

I want a leader to be man enough to admit when their own performance is not good. I expect the manager to show that any player but especially the captain will be taken off or not start if their performance is not high. Fair enough?

I have said that if we start with a diamond set up, Nolan will be the best player to fit that formation.
Nolan has shown kids theres no free ride. Heck half the reason Andy Carroll went from zero to hero was because of Nolans influence (had to live with him). Ever since joining Liverpool he went back to his boozing ways (look up some photos of him at monday morning passed out at a nightclub for example of this).

I think Nolan wants the team to win more then he cares about his own performance. I dont think he would slag himself off unless we are a losing football team. Its pretty rare a captain comes out and discusses his own performances unless things are looking grim. We are 1st on the table so we certainly have not reached that stage yet
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Re: West Ham v Nottingham Forest match thread

Post by Up the Junction »

Denbighammer wrote:Do you not think, with a couple of quality additions we would at least hold our own for a year and give ourselves something to build on for the future?
A couple? Absolutely not...
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Re: West Ham v Nottingham Forest match thread

Post by brooking10 »

I thought Nolan had a good game on Saturday - he makes endless runs forward, and is invariably our most advanced player when a move breaks down / ball goes out of play. That's why he scores so many goals. I'd like to see stats for how much ground he covers compared to the rest of our midfield. The people who slag him probably think Lampard is useless and lazy as well, and probably thought David Platt was ordinary. Obviously both are a class above Nolan, but you get my drift? And yes, he would score a lot more if we had proper wide players.

A goal scoring midfielder, strong character, good organiser - what we've been missing for for years - but because he earns a lot, is associated with Allardyce and didn't come up through our academy, there seems to be almost a vendetta against him?

I don't care where players come from or what they earn, as long as they do their very best for West Ham, that's enough for me. I judge all players the same, unlike some.

Also, credit to the Forest support on Saturday - they stayed behind their team, and they all seemed to stay to the final whistle (unless they were locked in!), and were rewarded with a great goal.
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Re: West Ham v Nottingham Forest match thread

Post by Turns to Stone »

Denbighammer wrote:Do you not think, with a couple of quality additions we would at least hold our own for a year and give ourselves something to build on for the future?
Up the Junction wrote: A couple? Absolutely not...
6 and we might have a chance.
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Re: West Ham v Nottingham Forest match thread

Post by Doc H Ball »

We need 2 full backs alone.
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