Everton 1-0 West Ham Utd (01/03/14)

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irving boleyn
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Re: Everton v West Ham United: Match Thread

Post by irving boleyn »

Spend any money on two or three pacey midfielders (we may already have one in Nocerino)

If Sam does that he will probably have built a team on a budget by a perfect method.

1.Shore up the defence.

2.Build an attack which doesnt rely on clever midfield approach work.

3.Supplement these two areas with "specialised"midfielders, one blocker/chaser,one Captain/goalhanger (bit harsh but allow for hyperbole)

4. Replace the two "specialists" with 2 allround midfielders of sufficient quality that their goal creation assets will be worth the sacrifice of any belt and braces defense system.

From hoofing to total football in four easy stages.
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MB
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Re: Everton v West Ham United: Match Thread

Post by MB »

Morocco Mole wrote:No one said it would be easy but it's what we need to find if we want to progress.

There's a kid at QPR with potential..... :)
Oh it all comes back to the English Adel Taarabt. Good luck with that.
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Re: Everton v West Ham United: Match Thread

Post by Morocco Mole »

MB wrote:
Oh it all comes back to the English Adel Taarabt. Good luck with that.
I was being facetious.

Last season the skipper scored 10 and got 3 assists. This season it's 7 and 5 so far. On the face of it they are decent returns but are you really saying there's no one else around who can get near that? He rarely scores away from home and never against anyone good. I think you're falling for the line.

The system entirely revolves around Carroll and Nolan the package. Factor in AC's goals and assists and the cost of both and is it really that impressive?

I bet Joe Cole or Stuart Downing could contribute at least as much from the number 10 position given a chance.....
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Re: Everton v West Ham United: Match Thread

Post by Turns to Stone »

Funnily enough, we would probably have seen a lot more of what our new boys had to offer had we not won the last 4 on the bounce. Not exactly a reason to be frustrated, but it would certainly be nice to see what Nocerino can do given a start. Again. Taylor, similarly to Collins vs Reid is one of those when sometimes it's hard to take a player out of the side despite knowing that he had his limitations.

I agree with most on here and think that it's a central midfielder that we should be looking for. The issue is that we actually already have a pretty good one available in Diame. We have another good one currently on loan at QPR. Finding a good one isn't necessarily going to be the tough part. It's going to be finding one that doesn't adds to the balance of the midfield we currently have (if we accept that Nolan and Noble should be starting).

I may sound like a broken record, but for me we need 5 new players in the summer. 3 of them to bulk out the squad as bog-standard, utilityish Premier League players with hopefully newer legs than the likes of Matt Taylor, Guy Demel and George McCartney. The two important ones are the central midfielder and the wide-striker (who will also be required to deputise for Carroll when he's injured/suspended). I'd like to see £20m spent on them, and I'm basically looking for the closest thing to James Milner available for the central midfield role and the closest thing to Loic Remy available for the striker role. It's very doable, but I worry that the board will bottle it and wait until the 31st August to see if Man City or Chelsea fancying lending them someone.
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Re: Everton v West Ham United: Match Thread

Post by Turns to Stone »

Morocco Mole wrote:
The system entirely revolves around Carroll and Nolan the package. Factor in AC's goals and assists and the cost of both and is it really that impressive?

I bet Joe Cole or Stuart Downing could contribute at least as much from the number 10 position given a chance.....
Absolutely. I think a better question is could Nolan and Carroll deliver more with the right/better players around them. My guess is that they could (at least for one more season).
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Re: Everton v West Ham United: Match Thread

Post by Morocco Mole »

Turns to Stone wrote: Absolutely. I think a better question is could Nolan and Carroll deliver more with the right/better players around them. My guess is that they could (at least for one more season).
Possibly, but we've already spent 17million on wide players to specifically complement them and it's hardly been a roaring success.....
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Re: Everton v West Ham United: Match Thread

Post by Yea Why Not »

Morocco Mole wrote:
Possibly, but we've already spent 17million on wide players to specifically complement them and it's hardly been a roaring success.....
Annoying isn't on. On paper the thought of Jarvis and Downing whipping in balls to Carroll to either score or knock one down to Nolan sounds great but it hasn't really materialised yet. It's coming though I can feel it and when it does click, there will be carnage
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Re: Everton v West Ham United: Match Thread

Post by irving boleyn »

With the two new forthcoming quality central mid's, Jarvis and Downing will hopefully be receiving the ball nearer the sharp end and wont be too knackered from running from their own 12 yard line, to make a decent cross

. Also the Striker will have more room as his markers leave him to confront the surging runs of these two saviours.

There are bargains to be had...Sp*rs paid 11m for Erickson, and Newcastle about 4/5 m for Cabaye.

Come on Sam, The freedom of Nathan's is within your grasp.
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Turns to Stone
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Re: Everton v West Ham United: Match Thread

Post by Turns to Stone »

It's important to remember that we bought Jarvis just after promotion though. He was essentially a player that had just been relegated, and whilst I thikn he's exactly the sort of player that we should have in the squad, I think a more balanced side would have Downing and Vaz Te (or ideally his replacement) playing off Carroll.

I think the business we did in our first transfer window in the Prem was mixed, some successes and some failures, but it's very important to remember that we'd just been promoted through the playoffs, had no guarantee of survival that year and in all honesty probably weren't the most positives of destinations for footballers looking for glory at that time. I'd like to think that the signings of Carroll and Downing are a greater indication of the sort of players we can attract than Maiga and Jarvis.

Please note, I think Jarvis was a good signing, just that we paid about £3m too much for him as we were desperate for an experience Premier League winger.
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Re: Everton v West Ham United: Match Thread

Post by MB »

Morocco Mole wrote:I bet Joe Cole or Stuart Downing could contribute at least as much from the number 10 position given a chance.....
Neither played in that role in their prime so I'd question how they'd suddenly be effective there. Also, Downing has missed as many clear chances this season as Cole has missed games.

I do not think that Nolan is a number 10 in the modern sense. I see him more like "the little guy" in a classic 442. That is in part why I think we suffer to have possession. We are not really playing three in midfield. We have two and a "forward" tracking back with all the limitations which come with it.

Drop the goal scoring "forward" for a midfielder and suddenly we look short of goals.

You'd never play Noble and Taylor in a classic 442 and it only really works in our system because we bypass them (to an extent) when we attack.

And to be blunt, Jarvis and Downing do not score enough goals when compared to their peers.
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Re: Everton v West Ham United: Match Thread

Post by Turns to Stone »

Yea Why Not wrote:
Annoying isn't on. On paper the thought of Jarvis and Downing whipping in balls to Carroll to either score or knock one down to Nolan sounds great but it hasn't really materialised yet. It's coming though I can feel it and when it does click, there will be carnage
Let's also not forget that Downing and Carroll have only been the pitch for about 3 and a half games for West Ham. How many times have we actually seen Allardyce have a full compliment of attacking players to pick from this season? My guess would be 0.
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Re: Everton v West Ham United: Match Thread

Post by Hockley Hammer »

I think it depends on the central midfielder being defensive minded or attack minded. I think a really good defensive midfielder means we see more of the footballer in Noble, An attacking midfielder means Noble has to take more defensive responsibility.
During the Southampton game I kept pointing out to a mate the work Matty Taylor was doing getting into positions to cover when Noble went forward or when we lost possession. Nothing spectacular, but the discipline of his positioning enabled Noble to have another good game. I contrast with Noble when Diame played centre mid and he couldn't venture too far away from centre mid because when the inevitable loss of possession from Diame the opposition go straight to the heart of our midfield becauase there is a huge gap covered by Noble because Diame does not track back. Contrast to the speed with which Taylor gets back into position. Not saying Taylor is a great player (as his passing sometimes shows) but he brings balance to help Noble. I don't think Diame does this.

I would say we need a really good DM who has good passing ability so that we have two passers on the ball in that position not just one. An attacking midfielder would be an alternative to Nolan.

I've always thought Nolan would make a decent DM. He reads the game well, tries to keep it simple. He wins very few tackles but makes plenty of interceptions, is decent in the air. He often tracks back to cover spaces and quite often ends up with the ball coming out of defence. His long passing isn't as good, but two players who keep possession in centre mid would improve our possession greatly.
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Re: Everton v West Ham United: Match Thread

Post by Chuck D »

Maybe, just maybe we should see a run of games with our CF, AM, and wingers doing what they are supposed to, before saying it hasnt worked.

We've had Carroll fit for what, three games? We've won two of them.......
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Re: Everton v West Ham United: Match Thread

Post by vietnammer »

Bit late with this, but I just saw Lukaku's goal and yes, it's unbelievable how he was left unmarked all that time. Can't be all bad as though the radio sounded like a lot of Everton pressure, we often get completely rodgered at Goodison. Shame about what must have been a lapse in defending.
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Re: Everton v West Ham United: Match Thread

Post by Yea Why Not »

Turns to Stone wrote: Let's also not forget that Downing and Carroll have only been the pitch for about 3 and a half games for West Ham. How many times have we actually seen Allardyce have a full compliment of attacking players to pick from this season? My guess would be 0.
True. Although Jarvis, Carroll and Nolan did play together many times last season though and for what ever reason it just didn't work out the way we all thought it would
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Re: Everton v West Ham United: Match Thread

Post by Morocco Mole »

irving boleyn wrote:With the two new forthcoming quality central mid's, Jarvis and Downing will hopefully be receiving the ball nearer the sharp end and wont be too knackered from running from their own 12 yard line, to make a decent cross

. Also the Striker will have more room as his markers leave him to confront the surging runs of these two saviours.

There are bargains to be had...Sp*rs paid 11m for Erickson, and Newcastle about 4/5 m for Cabaye.

Come on Sam, The freedom of Nathan's is within your grasp.
I agree. It comes down to having midfielders who can win the ball, hold onto the ball and pass it progressively.....
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Re: Everton v West Ham United: Match Thread

Post by Morocco Mole »

MB wrote: Neither played in that role in their prime so I'd question how they'd suddenly be effective there. Also, Downing has missed as many clear chances this season as Cole has missed games.
Downing played there in 2010/11 at Villa. 8 goals, 7 assists.
MB wrote: I do not think that Nolan is a number 10 in the modern sense. I see him more like "the little guy" in a classic 442. That is in part why I think we suffer to have possession. We are not really playing three in midfield. We have two and a "forward" tracking back with all the limitations which come with it.
I agree and I don't think that tactic will take us much further.
MB wrote: Drop the goal scoring "forward" for a midfielder and suddenly we look short of goals.

You'd never play Noble and Taylor in a classic 442 and it only really works in our system because we bypass them (to an extent) when we attack.

And to be blunt, Jarvis and Downing do not score enough goals when compared to their peers.
Which is why we're talking about improving things.

We need more guile and creativity in midfield and more goals from at least one of our wide forwards. Keeping the ball better in midfield might conceivably allow our wide men to get into more goal scoring positions rather than chasing their tails up and down the wing for 90 minutes.....
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Re: Everton v West Ham United: Match Thread

Post by bubbles1966 »

You also need a pair of full backs who are rapid, and who can be trusted to defend alone so that Downing and Jarvis don't operate as auxillary full backs.

I can see the same debate as last year opening up about trying to play counter attacking football away from home with our current first choices.

The more I think about it, the clearer the need for changes becomes :)
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Re: Everton v West Ham United: Match Thread

Post by saludo de carlitos »

One of the worst atmospheres I have witnessed in years, home and away supporters, just flat as a pancake.
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Re: Everton v West Ham United: Match Thread

Post by Turns to Stone »

saludo de carlitos wrote:One of the worst atmospheres I have witnessed in years, home and away supporters, just flat as a pancake.
Both teams cruising toward mid-table security with nothing to play for. 8-)
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