Rangers in administration (Non WHU)

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Re: Rangers in administration (Non WHU)

Postby the pink palermo on Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:46 pm

Believer :thup:
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Re: Rangers in administration (Non WHU)

Postby Believer on Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:10 pm

the pink palermo wrote:Believer :thup:


Cheers Pinky.. As much as the Old Firm are the dominating factors in Scottish football, they are not the be all and end all of the game up there. They demand the lions share of whatever TV deals are on the table, they are on every week on the TV, they pounce on all the up and coming youngsters up there. Maybe Celtic will realise now that they don't have their big bullying buddy with them that teams other than those 2 actually exist.
The money that Dundee Utd or Aberdeen could generate from being in the top 2 could be worth more to them than an extra 5000 Rangers fans coming to their grounds twice a season. If they get an extra 500 STHs, that in itself will more than cover the shortfall. I have a few mates in Scotland who reckon that they wont take their kids to games when Celtic & Rangers come to town due to the increase in trouble so maybe a lot of people will fall in love with the game again ?

A bit of competition never done anyone any harm. Me ? I'm actually glad that we have 2, 3, 4 or even 5 teams capable of winning the Premiership as it is hardly a competition otherwise.....
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Re: Rangers in administration (Non WHU)

Postby Doctor Mopp on Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:35 pm

Believer wrote:Back in the 80s, Rangers and Celtic were playing second fiddle to Aberdeen & Dundee Utd. Rangers were playing in front of 12-15000 and Celtic mid 20s. No one worried about the effect that Rangers and Celtic weren't massively followed then. Don't get me wrong they've always had big support but they didn't always go. If I remember correctly, Scottish football was just poodling along much as it will for the next few years, prior to the Souness era. All of a sudden Rangers were paying huge wages to Butcher, Woods, Steven, Laudrup, Gazza et al.

I actually think that the Edinburgh teams, the Dundee teams, Aberdeen etc will all start to see more supporters turn up cos they might now have a chance of finishing 2nd and getting into CL. I don't believe that Rangers not being in the SPL will kill the game. It may affect the SKY deal but lets be honest it's a sh*t deal that they get from SKY anyway compared to Premiership.


The TV deal relies on the Old Firm derbies (as the only marquee fixtures), and the other clubs have come to budget for this income. In the early 80's the fortunes of the Glasgow clubs did not matter as much to the other clubs as their financial wellbeing was not so entwined with the revenue that now rests with the Old Firm.

They do get a poor deal (£16m per season) compared to the Premiership, but there is a big difference in expenditure also - and the other SPL clubs have come to rely on the TV money. The outcome of losing the TV deal is likely to have similar consequences to the loss of the ITV Digital money for the English Football League I would guess.
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Re: Rangers in administration (Non WHU)

Postby Cuenca 'ammer on Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:07 pm

To a lesser degree a bit like us lot budgeting for the Manchester derby every year though.......

BUT. A lot of that was to do with the marquee players that Rangers got in with under the table payments.....would not have seen the likes of Laudrup et al without them. Didn't Celtic though suffer from something similar not too long ago ? Had to be rescued by the fella that owns them now ?
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Re: Rangers in administration (Non WHU)

Postby DaveWHU1964 on Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:09 pm

It would be nice to think that with Rangers out of the way and the opportunity of CL football for the likes of Hearts and Dundee Utd that attendances will increase. They may but it will have to be significantly in order to get back to anywhere near what they were in the 80's before the Rangers and Celtic title monopoly started.

Does anyone else remember when Aberdeen's home attendance was always given as exactly 21,000? They are down to about 9,000 now. Dundee Utd are at around 7,000. It's hard to see them improving enough to make up for the loss of the TV money if it's true that that revenue is dependent on Rangers and Celtic being in the top league.

I'm all for Rangers being punished and punished adequately. And of course I also believe that the integrity of the league is vital. But it's unrealistic to expect SFL clubs to vote to put Rangers in league 3 when that could lead to their own team's demise. So whilst it sucks, Rangers will be one league below the SPL this season.

It doesn't make it right of course, and you can validly argue that a financial model clubs use that is utterly reliant on the stability and well-being of other teams is deeply flawed. But you cannot expect smaller teams with loyal, albeit small fan bases just to do the honourable thing and then die as a consequence. It would be the footballing equivalent of the guy who walked out of Scott of the Antartic's camp saying "I may be some time'.
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Re: Rangers in administration (Non WHU)

Postby Cuenca 'ammer on Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:17 pm

I wonder though, if realising that your club doesn't have a prayer and your board the same, when the vicious circle begins with "Let's not spend any money, we're chucking good after bad." Top team doesn't even qualify for CL now, they have to pre qualify. So the number 2 will be way down the order and how long before even the 2nd place team doesn't get any slots. So now they are trying for one spot only. Everyone loses interest. Not saying you only go to football to see you team in Europe but when economically they're in dire straits can you see anyone in Scotland investing in a club outside of Glasgow ? Trickles down to the fans. Look at other clubs in England traditionally well supported whose fan base is slipping due to the PL. ManYoo don't fill that stadium with fans growing up with them, they are change over fans and fans who might go locally to a smaller club but now are the Sky generation. What happened to supporting your local club ? Yet bus loads of fans go from areas all over England to get on the glory trail.
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Re: Rangers in administration (Non WHU)

Postby Believer on Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:23 pm

DaveWHU1964 wrote:
Does anyone else remember when Aberdeen's home attendance was always given as exactly 21,000? They are down to about 9,000 now. Dundee Utd are at around 7,000. It's hard to see them improving enough to make up for the loss of the TV money if it's true that that revenue is dependent on Rangers and Celtic being in the top league.



Blimey I never realised it was as bad as that. Major shake up required then. I wonder why the crowds have dwindled so much - it must be due to having next to no chance of winning anything and knowing that 8 times out of 10 that the old firm will put about 3 or 4 past you...?
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Re: Rangers in administration (Non WHU)

Postby Cuenca 'ammer on Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:42 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18735027

Clubs in the Scottish 3rd division.....

Look at the attendances. A year of filling up their grounds with Rangers coming to play might give them all a few seasons worth of money....

Not one team averages over 600 fans a game...

Remember too that the population of Scotland is not tremendous in and of itself. Just over 5 M according to Wiki.
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Re: Rangers in administration (Non WHU)

Postby DaveWHU1964 on Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:44 pm

Believer-

I think there's quite a lot of factors involved. The teams I quoted were at their peak in the 80's before the Souness revolution so their attendances would have been high at the time anyway. If you're an old git like me you'll remember that it was their ascendency over the Old Firm that sparked Rangers into action in the mid-80's.

Even so nowadays, attendances north of the border are very poor. I just looked up figures, and the combined averages of Kilmarnock, Motherwell, St Mirren don't even add up to that of Charlton. Had it not been for the justifiably furious reactions of their own supporters at the prospect of Newco being allowed straight back into the top league, the SPL clubs would have allowed it, purely for financial reasons and no other. As it is they felt compelled to vote against it as they were worried that their own supporters would boycott them were they to do otherwise.

So now the poor (in every sense of the word) SFL clubs have been given the unenviable task of deciding the fate of Rangers. Whatever they decide won't be right for everyone and accordingly they will take untold flak. That's a shame as they are far less culpable than most of those involved on this mess.
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Re: Rangers in administration (Non WHU)

Postby Believer on Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:52 pm

DaveWHU1964 wrote:Believer-

I think there's quite a lot of factors involved. The teams I quoted were at their peak in the 80's before the Souness revolution so their attendances would have been high at the time anyway. If you're an old git like me you'll remember that it was their ascendency over the Old Firm that sparked Rangers into action in the mid-80's.

Even so nowadays, attendances north of the border are very poor. I just looked up figures, and the combined averages of Kilmarnock, Motherwell, St Mirren don't even add up to that of Charlton. Had it not been for the justifiably furious reactions of their own supporters at the prospect of Newco being allowed straight back into the top league, the SPL clubs would have allowed it, purely for financial reasons and no other. As it is they felt compelled to vote against it as they were worried that their own supporters would boycott them were they to do otherwise.

So now the poor (in every sense of the word) SFL clubs have been given the unenviable task of deciding the fate of Rangers. Whatever they decide won't be right for everyone and accordingly they will take untold flak. That's a shame as they are far less culpable than most of those involved on this mess.


Big couple of years ahead.......maybe Aberdeen can get Fergie to go back there for a final swansong..... :lol:
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Re: Rangers in administration (Non WHU)

Postby falcon hairspray on Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:08 pm

But surely there is a precedent set by the the team beginning with G! Therefore there can be only one outcome :think:
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Re: Rangers in administration (Non WHU)

Postby Hawaiian hammer on Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:35 pm

One scenario I do not see being considered here is that if Rangers do drop to the SFL1, is that they do not get promoted back to the SPL at first attempt. With the likely loss of their best players and a transfer embargo, how competitive are they going to be?
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Re: Rangers in administration (Non WHU)

Postby Cuenca 'ammer on Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:43 pm

fh

I think you'll find that Wembley covered it, as did the chairman of the SFA.

Wembley said it will be conveniently over looked (and he'll no doubt be right) and the chairman said it would be financial suicide if they started in div 3. So a) they overlook it, Gretna ain't big enough to kick up a stink and b) they league hope they'll be promoted back at first asking to avoid another year of lowered income.

And I hope they fail in their promotion bid (although with the overall weakness of the SPL their reserves should come in second) so that the SFA will have to make another choice and maybe open up promotion back to the SPL to however many teams come in front of them meaning an unprecedented 8 teams get promotion next year.

:lol:

I wonder what would happen were that the case, that they didn't finish high enough ~ ***** themselves no doubt.
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Re: Rangers in administration (Non WHU)

Postby York Ham(mer) on Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:57 pm

A big meeting then next Friday.... Note the second section.

Subject: SFL Special General Meeting – Friday, 13th July, 2012

Dear Sir or Madam,

NOTICE OF SPECIAL GENERAL MEETING – SCOTTISH FOOTBALL LEAGUE

Notice is hereby given that a Special General Meeting of The Scottish Football League will be held within the Bell/Baird Suite on the fifth floor of Hampden Park, Glasgow on Friday, 13th July, 2012 at 11.00 a.m. for the purpose of considering and, if thought fit, approving the following proposals:-

(i) That the Scottish Football League Members agree to admit Sevco Scotland Limited as an Associate Member and agrees to permit Rangers F.C. to play in the League during Season 2012/13.

(ii) That the Scottish Football League Members direct the Board of Management of The Scottish Football League (the “Board”) to provide that Rangers F.C. shall play in the Third Division of the Scottish Football League during Season 2012/13 unless the Board shall have to its satisfaction negotiated and reached agreement with The Scottish Premier League and The Scottish Football Association on a series of measures which the Board shall consider to be in the best interests of the game, how it is structured, how it is governed and how it is financed, whereupon the Board shall be authorised to provide that Rangers F.C. shall play in the First Division of the Scottish Football League during Season 2012/13.

(iii) That the Scottish Football League Members in terms of Rule 12 approve the resignation of either Dundee F.C. or Dunfermline Athletic F.C., whichever shall be admitted to join the Scottish Premier League for Season 2012/13, such resignation to take effect as at the date of admission of such club to the Scottish Premier League, notwithstanding that the requisite notice under Rule 12 shall not have been given.Details of the series of measures referred to at (ii) above shall be made available to the Members in advance of the meeting and an opportunity for full discussion of those measures will be given prior to the proposals being put to the meeting.

In accordance with the terms of SFL Rule 53, your club must send one representative to this meeting and I would be most grateful if you could advise me of the name of your representative by return.

A buffet lunch will be served at the conclusion of the meeting.

Kind regards,
David A. Longmuir
Chief Executive, SFL.
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Re: Rangers in administration (Non WHU)

Postby evomutant on Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:15 pm

Buffet lunch!

Will ensure a good turnout anyway.
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Re: Rangers in administration (Non WHU)

Postby Cuenca 'ammer on Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:17 am

evo

That's the first thing that I thought about....

:lol:

So in other words then Rangers for Div 1 and they get a reshuffle as to how the SFL and SPL are run. A few bob more evenly distributed and Robert is your auntie's husband. The top league get Rangers back next season and Rangers don't get to play the Old Firm Game 4 times. So what really is the punishment then ? As Wembley points out no accounts means no Europe for 3 years anyway and they circumvent the accounting rules like that which was applied to Gretna. So in effect we can now confirm one rule for the big boys and another for everyone else.

Fkcuing shambles....
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Re: Rangers in administration (Non WHU)

Postby DaveWHU1964 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:04 am

Hawaiian hammer wrote:One scenario I do not see being considered here is that if Rangers do drop to the SFL1, is that they do not get promoted back to the SPL at first attempt. With the likely loss of their best players and a transfer embargo, how competitive are they going to be?


This. :thup: And that's probably the most likely scenario HH. They have lost a lot of players, and their best players at that. Those players that weren't stupid enough to be fed Green's bullying and intimidation have exercised their right to leave as their old employer ceased, or is about to cease to exist. If they can't sign other players they are going to struggle to go up next season.

Their promotion rivals are going to look at them and think we can finish above this lot for the first time ever/ in living memory. If we thought that we were a biggish fish in a small pond last season and teams raised their games against us then that will be as nothing compared to what Newco will be up against next season. Added to that the animosity that those teams will feel against Newco after the sh*t that they have caused, combined with the fact that Newco's team will be full of kids and/ or this season's reserves and the odd wizzened pro and promotion is anything but guaranteed.

And what that means, is that if SPL teams are counting on Newco being promoted this season then they may well be sadly disappointed. Shame.
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Re: Rangers in administration (Non WHU)

Postby Wembley1966 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:43 pm

Johnny Byrne's Boots wrote:Following on from Pinky's point about Dundee and Dunfermline, which if any of them will be allowed to vote in the upcoming SFL meetings if the SFA delay the decision on Club 12's identity? A vote that could be crucial in a close ballot.

Dundee have been told not to vote and it's unsure about whether this would count as an abstention or would not be counted at all and therefore would be a vote of 29 clubs. Given that Rangers were allowed to vote in Thursday's SPL vote it's unsure why Dundee are not voting.

The ballot has become a lot closer due to some manipulation of the rules - to put a new club into the SFL 1 is an extra-ordinary event and would normally require 75% acceptance - but they've now decided that the first vote would be to decide whether Sevco can be accepted into the SFL and for that only a simple majority is required, and then for the board to decide which division they go in based upon what they can screw out of the SPL.

Then they need to consider overriding the 3-year accounts rule that a new club need to provide. They can do this by voting to override this and some other rules need overriding as well and will need to be really careful with this as it could be open to a legal challenge. It is allowable under the rules, however the 3 year ruling is there for a reason - are they a viable club and able to complete the season's fixtures without the likelihood of them going bust. At the moment they have no players as they've not been accepted by the SFA so cannot register any, and when they can there's currently only 6 senior squad members and a bunch of kids and reserves who have agreed to transfer across with others still undecided. No major bank will provide them with banking facilities - they've had to go with Metro Bank which only has 12 branches and those all in Greater London area. They have no income - no one is buying season tickets with other ex-Rangers people telling the fans not to buy, and they have no sponsorship deals concluded - or likely to be before the vote. Doubts whether they'll survive a couple of months, let alone the season. There's also the chance that once BDO are appointed as liquidators that they unwind not only the current sale of Ibrox to Green, but also the previous one to Whyte.

When it looks as though the vote was whether they went to SFL1 or SFL3, then 14 clubs have said or hinted that they will vote no to SFL1 and 2 have said yes. One of these - Stenhousemuir has published details of the TV finances that were presented to them last week - however these have already been refuted. Now with the change in the vote it's pissing off a lot of the SFL clubs who were already pissed of with the SPL threats of forming an SPL2 and not inviting any SFL clubs that didn't vote according to their wishes and various other 'bullying' threats. Also this is a problem that should have been sorted out by the SPL and SFA and the SFL resent being seen as the ones condemning Rangers.

Then throw in UEFA rules about promotion to a higher league being based upon sporting integrity alone and their history of intervening with liquidated clubs being placed in higher divisions.

Add to this the increasing groundswell of the opinion of the fans against SFL1 - it was this that led yesterday to out of 12 clubs, only Rangers voting in favour of the new club joining the SPL, despite the press, Rangers and SPL all suggesting that it was a foregone conclusion they would be voted in. And it was the SPL clubs that had far more to lose than the SFL clubs.

What the establishment want is Rangers back at the top - they want to put them into SFL1 and next season to give them a chance they will then make the SPL into 14 teams - with probably only 1 club being relegated and 3 promoted from SFL1. If it doesn't look like they'll make 3rd place then expect SPL2 to be formed.
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Re: Rangers in administration (Non WHU)

Postby Cuenca 'ammer on Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:35 am

Cheers Wembley

You've laid it out very succinctly as per.

So no doubt Rangers into SFL 1, no promotion automatically and an SPL 2.

Sporting integrity indeed. Circumvent all of the rules that applied to Gretna. Couldn't they sue ? Or would it be viable or even worth the effort ??
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Re: Rangers in administration (Non WHU)

Postby Dover KUMB fan on Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:54 pm

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