Upton Park Bus Garage

All you need to know about West Ham United FC's potential move to Stratford.

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Re: Upton Park Bus Garage

Postby gavrosh on Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:58 pm

The Rebirth wrote:In Germany some of the teams include coach travel in the ticket.

So for a day trip to watch the team they pay 14 EURO get a coach to the game and a match ticket.

With our new transport links we should work with the rail companies to get people into the ground.

In fact Ian Tompkins was in talks with one of them but I didn't hear the outcome!


Perhaps its best not to put "Ian Tompkins" and "outcome" together - they paint a disturbing mental picture in one's mind.
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Re: Upton Park Bus Garage

Postby gavrosh on Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:13 pm

The Old Mile End wrote:Fair point.

Not the answer, but it will be less than it will cost the spuds to develop the environs of WHL to take 60k.

I've listed some ideas on this before, but developing both East Ham & Upton Park stations, having a scheme to shuttle people from Stratford to Upton Park and back, utilising the match day ticket so that it covers London Transport fares, using local school playgrounds and parks for paid parking, laying on coaches to pick up fans from the major Essex & Kent towns etc......obviously has a cost.

The bus garage closing has made it a lot cheaper than it originally was.

A 50k capacity ground that attracts over 40k every game will cover that lot.

For me, I'd have to see it be done and fail, before I'd ever consider a move. :crest:



Mate, it doesnt matter how much you tart up East Ham and Upton Park stations - the fact of the matter is theyre stuck way out on the District line in a very unpleasant area whose major selling point is Queens market or a pie and mash or a cheap curry. Stratford is totally different altogether, with the Shenfield and Colchester line, The Central line, the District one stop away, the Jubilee line, the DLR, direct services from St Pancras and onto Kent, the Overground to North London, Westfield, smart housing estates, the QE2 Olympic Park, the media centre (to be taken over by ITV i hear).......it may be a couple of miles as the crow flies but in attractiveness and ease of getting to its light years away.
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Re: Upton Park Bus Garage

Postby hadleighhammer on Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:42 pm

gavrosh wrote:Westfield, smart housing estates, the QE2 Olympic Park, the media centre (to be taken over by ITV i hear).......it may be a couple of miles as the crow flies but in attractiveness and ease of getting to its light years away.


It's sad that any of that matters at all, let alone is considered a major selling point by some.
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Re: Upton Park Bus Garage

Postby gavrosh on Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:53 pm

hadleighhammer wrote:It's sad that any of that matters at all, let alone is considered a major selling point by some.


You dont get me - as a West Ham fan, that's incidental. It is a major selling point to get armchair supporters and people who really dont have much allegiance at all to come along to the game, and spend money though. And its that cash they bring, and the increased money from corporates, and the increase in West Ham's brand recognition that's the best bet in our lifetimes for our club to actually start winning some things. That's what I care about. I wish we could do that and not have to leave our roots, but that will never, ever happen. As far as im concerned, we either move forwards with this, or we keep on sliding back.
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Re: Upton Park Bus Garage

Postby Cuenca 'ammer on Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:26 pm

Hadleigh

And that is costing a lot of fans tickets in the NFL and NBA. But because there are fewer games in the NFL (8 home) as opposed to the NBA (40 odd I think) they can in most cases pack them in. The NBA with the corporate boxes suffer from having corporate fans. No allegiance. Crowds are thinning and the atmospheres in most places has to be generated by cheerleaders, mascots and public announcers trying to rev the crowd up. Baseball has similar problems. The Astros for all of what having their new ground has done are ***** and have lost over 100 games. It is much easier to get there, the surrounds are much better than the old place, but guess what ? Fans are not showing up. Now admittedly there isn't a team just up the road (but 2 minor league teams are starting play soon so it remains to be seen what effect that has) and for all the snazzy shirts, good restaurants and easier travel, people are not going. When they made the play offs a while back in the shitty old Astrodome people ****ed in.

Now our fans are nowhere near as fickle as some American sports fans, but we have constantly held our own even in the old "Glory Years" of the Spuds. We're still around. And will continue to do so. Just because of our tradition. No new fans will join because we're in Stratford. The only thing will be match day revenue. And that will soon deteriorate if we have a half empty place with no atmosphere. People might say there's no atmosphere now, but at least the place is full (or a reasonable facsimile). Try the same thing with 20K in that poxy bowl.
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Re: Upton Park Bus Garage

Postby hadleighhammer on Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:46 pm

gavrosh wrote:
You dont get me - as a West Ham fan, that's incidental. It is a major selling point to get armchair supporters and people who really dont have much allegiance at all to come along to the game, and spend money though. And its that cash they bring, and the increased money from corporates, and the increase in West Ham's brand recognition that's the best bet in our lifetimes for our club to actually start winning some things. That's what I care about. I wish we could do that and not have to leave our roots, but that will never, ever happen. As far as im concerned, we either move forwards with this, or we keep on sliding back.


That's just as if not more depressing. Even if it is what you care most about, me personally I'd rather be a bit **** than sell out for the corporate and tourist £ in the vague hope of us winning something.
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Re: Upton Park Bus Garage

Postby hadleighhammer on Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:48 pm

I think for the first time I generally agree with one of your posts Cuenca. :shock:

What I will say though is that the OS will attract new fans, but it will be the type Gavrosh is talking about. Not something to strive for though IMO.
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Re: Upton Park Bus Garage

Postby The Rebirth on Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:44 pm

Cuenca 'ammer wrote:Hadleigh

And that is costing a lot of fans tickets in the NFL and NBA. But because there are fewer games in the NFL (8 home) as opposed to the NBA (40 odd I think) they can in most cases pack them in. The NBA with the corporate boxes suffer from having corporate fans. No allegiance. Crowds are thinning and the atmospheres in most places has to be generated by cheerleaders, mascots and public announcers trying to rev the crowd up. Baseball has similar problems. The Astros for all of what having their new ground has done are s***e and have lost over 100 games. It is much easier to get there, the surrounds are much better than the old place, but guess what ? Fans are not showing up. Now admittedly there isn't a team just up the road (but 2 minor league teams are starting play soon so it remains to be seen what effect that has) and for all the snazzy shirts, good restaurants and easier travel, people are not going. When they made the play offs a while back in the shitty old Astrodome people ****ed in.

Now our fans are nowhere near as fickle as some American sports fans, but we have constantly held our own even in the old "Glory Years" of the Spuds. We're still around. And will continue to do so. Just because of our tradition. No new fans will join because we're in Stratford. The only thing will be match day revenue. And that will soon deteriorate if we have a half empty place with no atmosphere. People might say there's no atmosphere now, but at least the place is full (or a reasonable facsimile). Try the same thing with 20K in that poxy bowl.


Atmosphere at yank stadiums!

College football is still popular though right?

Also don't they charge stupid money to see an NBA game? I think a massive issue still is cost of a game and if we have a bigger ground then offering cheaper tickets will bring in the kids. We need those kids.
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Re: Upton Park Bus Garage

Postby Mr_Andersonn on Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:16 pm

hadleighhammer wrote:I think for the first time I generally agree with one of your posts Cuenca. :shock:

What I will say though is that the OS will attract new fans, but it will be the type Gavrosh is talking about. Not something to strive for though IMO.


I think initially it will bring back many of the old fans that do not attend regularly too...
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Re: Upton Park Bus Garage

Postby hadleighhammer on Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:23 pm

Mr_Andersonn wrote:
I think initially it will bring back many of the old fans that do not attend regularly too...


Why? Cost? I think more of the old fans are put off more by the sanitised nature of the BG now, and the OS will be worse IMO...

But yes, for a season or two maybe people (not necessarily old fans) will want to have a look. That novelty will soon wear out stop and then what?
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Re: Upton Park Bus Garage

Postby Cuenca 'ammer on Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:17 am

Rebirth

Yes. College sells out. Partly tradition. Partly alumni going to games but still students can get something like 2 dollar tickets. It is a "Saturday Thing" in lots of places that a lot of times don't have a pro team to watch. Places like Tuscaloosa, Alabama, Lincoln, Nebraska, Ann Arbor, Michigan, Athens, Georgia some have pro teams close but they don't conflict so Saturday is set aside for college.

Yes tickets in the NBA are now very high, but the teams wanted new arenas to cater to the "corporate boxes" most of which were built by the cities and not the owners. And again salaries being what they are ticket prices when the big arenas hold maybe 25K mean that to support wages the ticket prices have to be high. The don't care a lot of the time because t.v. money is big, merchandising is big and corporate pay big ticket money. So the arenas are now half full for some games for some team, whereas the Lakers even with the highest prices (I would imagine) sell out on a regular basis. The big difference though is they win. Boston sell out, as do some other stadiums but I would think Sacramento et al (including the Rockets) have a tough time selling out maybe half their games. The teams are still "profitable" though.

So half full lack of atmosphere stadiums make money including the t.v. money etc. etc. but a lot of people don't go to watch a ***** product with ***** players playing ***** basketball. Catch 22 mate. We can't sell out the Boleyn on a regular basis in the PL with a 35K stadium how the fkcu are we going to fill a soulless bowl capable of seating 60K although a large portion will be tarpaulined off and the fans will be so far away from the game they will (imvho) stop going unless they can see Barca etc. on regular occasions. Fkcu playing Wigan on a Monday night for Sky. Unless it's the opener.
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Re: Upton Park Bus Garage

Postby The Rebirth on Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:50 am

Cuenca 'ammer wrote:Rebirth

Yes. College sells out. Partly tradition. Partly alumni going to games but still students can get something like 2 dollar tickets. It is a "Saturday Thing" in lots of places that a lot of times don't have a pro team to watch. Places like Tuscaloosa, Alabama, Lincoln, Nebraska, Ann Arbor, Michigan, Athens, Georgia some have pro teams close but they don't conflict so Saturday is set aside for college.

Yes tickets in the NBA are now very high, but the teams wanted new arenas to cater to the "corporate boxes" most of which were built by the cities and not the owners. And again salaries being what they are ticket prices when the big arenas hold maybe 25K mean that to support wages the ticket prices have to be high. The don't care a lot of the time because t.v. money is big, merchandising is big and corporate pay big ticket money. So the arenas are now half full for some games for some team, whereas the Lakers even with the highest prices (I would imagine) sell out on a regular basis. The big difference though is they win. Boston sell out, as do some other stadiums but I would think Sacramento et al (including the Rockets) have a tough time selling out maybe half their games. The teams are still "profitable" though.

So half full lack of atmosphere stadiums make money including the t.v. money etc. etc. but a lot of people don't go to watch a s***e product with s***e players playing s***e basketball. Catch 22 mate. We can't sell out the Boleyn on a regular basis in the PL with a 35K stadium how the fkcu are we going to fill a soulless bowl capable of seating 60K although a large portion will be tarpaulined off and the fans will be so far away from the game they will (imvho) stop going unless they can see Barca etc. on regular occasions. Fkcu playing Wigan on a Monday night for Sky. Unless it's the opener.


Very good points but at the end of the day when we were doing well 2005/06 we were selling out like every game? or close enough. Now if we can get the regular 35k and kids/young adults can afford to come I think we can get 50k I really believe we can.

Of course the club want to maximise revenue they have probably thought about thi!s but at the end of the day we will have the Olympic Stadium right near the financial district and the square mile. Corporate will be a big earner for us.

But my main points are we need to make the game accessible to the working man the school leavers and the school goers not just once or twice a season but every game.
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Re: Upton Park Bus Garage

Postby Cuenca 'ammer on Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:33 pm

Rebirth

Successful. There's a key point. No one is going to be "successful" top 10 unless they spend a few quid. The gap is getting bigger. Also you are looking to add another almost 50% (35K + 15K) to add up to 50K and that will still be 10K short of a full house. I honestly cannot see where the additional crowd is coming from ~ to be honest I reckon if you can add 7K kids and young adults you'll be lucky and that is only 42K in a 60K stadium 2/3rd's full week in week out and what about playing teams like Bolton and Wigan who don't even take a good support when they are at home ?

You need a ManYoo, Chel$ki, Spuds, and L'Arse (maybe) and Citeh to fill the ground even to 50K-55K. You'd be amazed at what a stadium looks like when you get even 45K in a 60K stadium. Doesn't feel even halfway full. My guess is we'll never use certain parts of the ground, the fans will be so far away from the "action" that it will after the novelty of the new stadium wears off, half full most weeks with tarps covering the empty seats and cameras moved away from showing the empty sections. Or fans moved into the sections that the t.v. shows to make it look full.

I can't see anything but tears ahead. (but then again I am a miserable bugger by regular standards).

:lol:
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Re: Upton Park Bus Garage

Postby gavrosh on Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:13 pm

If we can be consistently winning in the premier league - and by that i mean if we can can be a top six team, then i think we can fill it at least half of the time. If were consistently in the bottom half, then it will be half empty. The difference between the two is significant investment in the squad, and by that I mean investment the likes of which Gold and Sully are not going to be able to provide. We need that elusive third investor. Someone like Qatar. We need to pull of a citeh job.
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Re: Upton Park Bus Garage

Postby hadleighhammer on Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:12 am

gavrosh wrote:If we can be consistently winning in the premier league - and by that i mean if we can can be a top six team, then i think we can fill it at least half of the time. If were consistently in the bottom half, then it will be half empty. The difference between the two is significant investment in the squad, and by that I mean investment the likes of which Gold and Sully are not going to be able to provide. We need that elusive third investor. Someone like Qatar. We need to pull of a citeh job.


Are you intentionally trying to make this move sound like a massive **** up waiting to happen? If so, you're doing a fantastic job.
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Re: Upton Park Bus Garage

Postby HarrowInnHammer on Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:24 pm

So pretty much unless we are taken over by a rich individual we will fall away as a club, very naive and hollow.
Exactly why I hate modern football, I'd rather stick in the championship at the Boleyn than sell our soul.
We take the piss out of Arsenal and Chelsea and Man Utd for their foreign day-tripper supports, so why would we want to move to an arena for corporates.
The real fans aren't even being considered, and when alot of current West Ham season ticket holder drop off when we move maybe G&S will realise their mistake.
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Re: Upton Park Bus Garage

Postby TheAlmightyAmmer on Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:15 pm

The major two drawbacks for me with Stratford are the running track and the size of it

If the option was to build a 45-50k football stadium at Stratford I'd be all for it because of the corporate and transport benefits of it, but I just don't think a running track or such a big stadium will work for us
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Re: Upton Park Bus Garage

Postby boleyn4life on Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:15 pm

Romford wrote:Well i can say for a fact...it will be cheaper, easier, quicker and better for the enviroment for my goodself to get the OS.


Assuming you live in Romford....

Romford 2 Forest Gate 20-25 min walk 2 the Boleyn

Romford 2 Stratford 15 min walk 2 the Souless Athletic Stadium

Price of travel - same.

Better for the Enviroment?? Ridiculous PC argument.

Home games in the last few years have been disrupted by TFL work on the tube which has affected every london club.
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Re: Upton Park Bus Garage

Postby Sweeney Bod on Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:48 am

It hit my last week that Gold and Sullivan are gambling on some sort of corporate market explosion as we will be closer to both Canary Wharf and the City. Not only that, they will sell the "iconic stadium" idea.

Because of the decent price on tickets, and the number of special occasions recently, I have been in the Legends Restaurant a few times this year. What I have noticed is that the standard corporate market has died at the Boleyn. You can just look at the empty seats and boxes to see this. Many of the older corporate clients have downgraded from dining facilities to just bar.

I overheard one of the Sales Team at West Ham say that they had taken a "walk-in payment" of £40 from someone at the Ipswich match. When you think that is only £8 more than the cheapest regular ticket, and then factor that you get a match programme, a bit of grub and a pint, it actually works out cheaper than that cheapest ticket.

So you can see why they would want to improve the corporate market.
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Re: Upton Park Bus Garage

Postby mushy on Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:19 am

the pink palermo wrote:The one in bold is what concerns the owners - and should concern us .It's not about you or I and what we do with our ticket money , it's the Corporate cash : the OS will be a magnet for Corporate money - regardless of whether there is a track there or not .

If Spurs do go ahead with redevloping the Lane , I would think G&S would be far more comfortable with us not getting Stratford : a redevloped Boleyn would still get it's share of the Corporate dollar .

To give you an idea of the imprtance of the Corporate stuff in relation to matchday takings - (not sponsorship, or naming rights ) - Everton have 5,000 more seats than Spurs, yet generate less than hlaf the amount of money per home game than Spurs do .

Everton £700k per game
Spurs £1.5m per game
Arsenal £3.5m per game
Man Utd £3.6m per game

It's not too fanciful to be projecting matchday income of around £3 m per game in the OS for whoever gets it .That's roughly treble what we currently receive .

I'm opposed to the move by the way , but I'll acknowledge what we could be giving up in terms of opportunity , and potentially presenting to another club .I know Spurs don't want the stadium - they want the infrastructure and the real estate , and were we to withdraw our interest I have no doubt Spurs would relocate to Stratford - it wouldn't bother me , but it would cost us money .


But where would the corporate money come from at the OS? I thought there was no provision for boxes and that the stadium design makes it impossible to build them, no?
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