The big Mark Noble debate...

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m-h
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Re: Flog Noble if the money's right...

Post by m-h »

When, not if, UEFA/Platini implements quotas, let alone that all teams in European competion must be running their clubs on "balanced book", then do you really want sell..... Noble and other Academy grads existing or coming through ?.

If you believe UEFA making progress with EU lawmakers ?, it will happen. If level playing field, like, "The Academy" over anyone elses, when you look at % of national/nationalized players in our current set up. Problem will be, can we hold onto the players ?.

New thread, Quotas ?.

just opinionated.
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Re: Flog Noble if the money's right...

Post by durham city hammer »

Noble has one or two good games and then goes missing and is p*** poor in the next five or six and until he sorts this
inconsistency out he will get criticised and rightly so imo, wouldnt sell him but he is f*****g frustrating to say the least!
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Re: Flog Noble if the money's right...

Post by westham,eggyandchips »

The bottom line is, players (like Noble) have certain standards and when they drop below that standard we all notice it. Im sure he'd be the first to admit he aint had a great season, and it can be for a number of reasons- poor fitness, playing out of position, lack of form and the emergence of Collison. I think I may have said in an earlier post, all Noble needs is an arm round the shoulder from GFZ between now and the of the season, a summers rest and im sure all will fine. :thup:
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Re: Flog Noble if the money's right...

Post by m-h »

westham,eggyandchips wrote:The bottom line is, players (like Noble) have certain standards and when they drop below that standard we all notice it. Im sure he'd be the first to admit he aint had a great season, and it can be for a number of reasons- poor fitness, playing out of position, lack of form and the emergence of Collison. I think I may have said in an earlier post, all Noble needs is an arm round the shoulder from GFZ between now and the of the season, a summers rest and im sure all will fine. :thup:
here here, seconded. GZ+SC will get the best out of him. What better duo to be schooled under. People critisize when he's not playing in his normal role. Just look at what he does in U-21 set up and see the difference. I know detractors will say there is no comparison between prem and 21's, but he's our player, came through "The Academy" and wears the colors and creast with pride. Thats a lo more than i can say for a large percentage of prem players.

Ranted and apologies to anyone who make take offence, but this is what its all about isn't it ?. don't want to be Arsenal.

Cheers.
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Re: Flog Noble if the money's right...

Post by Chuck D »

Miami

What history do Zola and Clarke have of getting the best out of young players?

Zola has never managed before, and Clarke was the tactical, and defensive coach behind a team with huge resources who bought the best, and sometimes got the most out of them.

What makes them "What better duo to be schooled under"?
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Re: Flog Noble if the money's right...

Post by westham,eggyandchips »

Chuck D wrote:Miami

What history do Zola and Clarke have of getting the best out of young players?

Zola has never managed before, and Clarke was the tactical, and defensive coach behind a team with huge resources who bought the best, and sometimes got the most out of them.

What makes them "What better duo to be schooled under"?
So you dont beleive GFZ and Clarke can get the best out of Noble then? If not, who can Chuck??
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Re: Flog Noble if the money's right...

Post by bubbles1966 »

Saw both sides of Noble today.

His finish was class.

2nd half when asked to play defensively he was running on treacle.

Has to be played like Lampard/Berkovic and deliver passing/finishing consistently - a game based on skill should be his forte.

The idea that he can play as a holding midfielder without actually running because of his "intelligent reading of the game" is wide of the mark.

Many can see what is going on in a game and developing - but can't cover the ground quickly enough to do anything about it........ and if there is one thing Noble does not have it is athleticism.

If you could play the game purely on reading it and without running Beckenbauer would still be playing....
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Re: Flog Noble if the money's right...

Post by m-h »

Chuck D wrote:Miami

What history do Zola and Clarke have of getting the best out of young players?

Zola has never managed before, and Clarke was the tactical, and defensive coach behind a team with huge resources who bought the best, and sometimes got the most out of them.

What makes them "What better duo to be schooled under"?
Teams, will come calling for Clarke in the off-season without a doubt, his record at CFC was impressive. Zola in charge of U-21 Italiano side, so fully aware of what it takes to be a coach in developing young players. As for Zola the player, watch the film. no disrespect intended.
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Re: Flog Noble if the money's right...

Post by westham,eggyandchips »

bubbles1966 wrote:Saw both sides of Noble today.

His finish was class.

2nd half when asked to play defensively he was running on treacle.

Has to be played like Lampard/Berkovic and deliver passing/finishing consistently - a game based on skill should be his forte.

The idea that he can play as a holding midfielder without actually running because of his "intelligent reading of the game" is wide of the mark.

Many can see what is going on in a game and developing - but can't cover the ground quickly enough to do anything about it........ and if there is one thing Noble does not have it is athleticism.

If you could play the game purely on reading it and without running Beckenbauer would still be playing....
I think the Berkovic comparison is pretty acurate.
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Re: Flog Noble if the money's right...

Post by SiO »

I think the Berkovic comparison is pretty acurate.[/quote]

I must say that I cannot see the Berkovic comparisons to be honest as I think that Nobes is more like a younger Rob Lee than anything else. I do think that players need a break and, as has been said on this site already, he has played a lot of football and been played out of position too which might explain his consistency (or lack of)... That said, I have always been a big fan and think that a larger squad of first-team quality players will help him no end. Things look pretty positive for West Ham on the playing side of things. I think that we have a decent compliment of defenders and (nearly) likewise across the middle when all are fit. I would just suggest that our striking options aren't what they need to be. They are what they should be all things considered (rather sell Bellars than Matty U, Parker or Green to generate money), but not what they could be (hopefully next season we will have more options). I am more than happy with the style of play this season and am much more excited on saturdays than I was under Curbs for all sorts of reasons. The reasons for this can be debated and have been to death... Suffice to say, my enthusiasm for the team is at its strongest for some time.

Awoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooga is definitely right
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Re: Flog Noble if the money's right...

Post by Iron Spine v2.0 »

Tel, hang your head in shame and prepare to eat your hat.

Look at what a wonderful 45 minutes Noble had today! Average season my arse!

:wink:
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Re: Flog Noble if the money's right...

Post by bubbles1966 »

The Berkovic thing is more about his position.

What are Noble's strengths?

- A good finisher generally (only behind Ray Stewart as a penalty taker)
- decent short/mid range passer
- has enough guile to lose a defender
- decent footballing brain

What are Noble's weaknesses?

- Cant tackle
- Poor athlete
- No speed or stamina

Solution - stick him as a central attacking midfield player with plenty of defensive midfield cover and tell him to play his game no further than 30 yards from the opposition goal..... an English Fabregas (minus the gobbing etc) if you like.....

Noble is the player that should play "in the hole" at West Ham....but he's a player needs to be "accomodated" and has to perform well enough - consistently enough - to justify that.
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Re: Flog Noble if the money's right...

Post by Chuck D »

miami-hammer wrote:
Teams, will come calling for Clarke in the off-season without a doubt, his record at CFC was impressive. Zola in charge of U-21 Italiano side, so fully aware of what it takes to be a coach in developing young players. As for Zola the player, watch the film. no disrespect intended.
Thanks for all that.

You didnt answer the question.

I didnt say that Clarke wasnt a good coach. I said that he doesnt have a record of bringing young players through. Which he doesnt.

Zola WASNT in charge of the Italy U21 side, but dont let the facts get in the way. He was involved with the Italian Olympic side which got knocked out by those world powers Belguim, and was U21 assistant manager.

You will have to explain what "watch the film" means.

If - as I suspect - you mean his playing record speaks for itself, then I agree, he was a first class player.

Quite what that has to do with anything relating to his ability to be a good manager I dont know.
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Re: Flog Noble if the money's right...

Post by shreddie »

Chuck D wrote:Miami

What history do Zola and Clarke have of getting the best out of young players?

Zola has never managed before, and Clarke was the tactical, and defensive coach behind a team with huge resources who bought the best, and sometimes got the most out of them.

What makes them "What better duo to be schooled under"?
Zola did some work with the Italy U21s before us.......
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Re: Flog Noble if the money's right...

Post by Chuck D »

westham,eggyandchips wrote:
So you dont beleive GFZ and Clarke can get the best out of Noble then? If not, who can Chuck??
I dont know if its about who the manager is mate.

Pardew - who has made the careers of Harewood, Coker, Ferdinand, and Mullins.

Curbishley - Who brought through Parker, Bent, and others at Charlton, and gave Tomkins and Collison their debuts at West Ham

and now Zola have all tried, and failed (thus far) to turn him into the player we thought he would be.

Three very different managers have made little difference to the way he plays, the runs he makes, the tackles he dives in for etc.

I think that the problem - as with Lampard - sits with the player, and the team.

It seems - by the sale of practically everyone else - that his first team berth is assured when fit.

Regardless of whether he is outstanding, or awful his name is on the sheet next week.

Much the same as Lampard was when he was here. Why would the player kill himself to stay in the team when he can do the minimum, and still get picked?

He has been knocking around for four seasons now without really showing what he can do.

Collison has been a revelation this season, and grabbed his chance.

Perhaps if/when Noble goes elsewhere, he will do what Lampard did, lose weight, get his head down, accept the competition for places, and make the strides in his game that he has.
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Re: Flog Noble if the money's right...

Post by Morocco Mole »

Chuck D wrote:
Morroco, what makes you say that he has had a good season?
Well we are currently 7th in the table which is probably punching above our weight given our injuries and squad strength. We have reached that position by playing attractive, passing football for the most part...and showed a bit of steel and grit along the way.
Mark Noble has been in the team more often than not. It follows then that those who think he has been average or in some cases worse than that clearly think our position has been achieved in spite of him. I don't. I think he has been an integral part of the results we have achieved and the style in which we've gone about it. He is the best passer in the team and playing at the point of the diamond, he kind of nits it all together if you like. Not saying he has performed at the consistent individual level of say Parker or Upson, but to laud Collison (for example) to the stars and yet want to flog Noble is ludicrous and has no foundation in my opinion. He has also cemented his position as England under 21 captain this season...so Psycho obviously sees something in him. Other than that I just like the bloke :D
That's about as lucid and articulate as I can be I'm afraid....
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Re: Flog Noble if the money's right...

Post by Chuck D »

shreddie wrote:
Zola did some work with the Italy U21s before us.......
And? David Platt managed our U21s.

Shall we see what he's up to?
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Re: Flog Noble if the money's right...

Post by Morocco Mole »

Chuck D wrote:

He has been knocking around for four seasons now without really showing what he can do.

Collison has been a revelation this season, and grabbed his chance.
Your turn now Chuck. Explain to me how Collison has been a 'revelation' in comparison to Noble? Feel free to use stats.... :wink:
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Re: Flog Noble if the money's right...

Post by shreddie »

Chuck D wrote:
And? David Platt managed our U21s.

Shall we see what he's up to?
Ok admittedly its not much to write home about but from what you've been saying it seems you think he's destined to fail in this department.....give him time.
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m-h
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Re: Flog Noble if the money's right...

Post by m-h »

Thanks for all that.

You didnt answer the question.

I didnt say that Clarke wasnt a good coach. I said that he doesnt have a record of bringing young players through. Which he doesnt.

Zola WASNT in charge of the Italy U21 side, but dont let the facts get in the way. He was involved with the Italian Olympic side which got knocked out by those world powers Belguim, and was U21 assistant manager.

You will have to explain what "watch the film" means.

If - as I suspect - you mean his playing record speaks for itself, then I agree, he was a first class player.

Quite what that has to do with anything relating to his ability to be a good manager I dont know.[/quote]

CD; apologies, you were correct, Zola assistant at U-21 Azzurri, my mistake. Just trying to say, these youngsters from our Academy will have the chance to develop and go further with us, than most other clubs in the league. I don't think that there would be many youth system players who would'nt "relish" the chance to come up under tutorledge with TC, SC and GZ more. Just opinion.
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