1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

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Ironworx
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Ironworx »

Green Hornet wrote:Bit puzzled by this one. Arsenal are in white. I know I'm 'colour blind' but the West Ham sleeves look the same colour as the main body of the shirt ?
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=22062" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
They are. The shirt doesn't look dark enough to be all claret - I wonder if it's Castle blue ? West Ham did play in Castle blue shirts and white shorts as change strip in earlier decades, maybe they did as late as 1930.........

I don't know much about deterioration of film, only photos, so can't comment on those sorts of possibility.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Ironworx »

Source - The West Ham Guardian. Date February 13th 1901.
West Ham V Luton
played at the memorial ground.
Southern league.
'West Ham did not play in their colours red white and blue but in white'.


Here's why West Ham played in white.....

Luton kit 1901

Image
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Cuenca 'ammer
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Cuenca 'ammer »

All these bloody references to bunging the clothes in a washing machine....

When do you think that they were invented you eedjits !!! And if the laundry lady was as particular as my nan, they would NEVER have put the reds in the with the white.. The Whites went in with the

Image

:lol:
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Green Hornet »

The Arsenal cup tie was an away game for us on March 1st 1930.
Quite why the home team should be playing in white... well, perhaps that was the rule if there was a colour clash in those days.
One week later West Ham beat Arsenal 3-2 at home.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by mokum hammer »

Image

1901-02 season - 'pink' or not - definitely a 'bobby o' black band around the shirts!
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Ironworx »

Did every one of those players definitely have black hair ?
Ironworx
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Ironworx »

Green Hornet wrote:The Arsenal cup tie was an away game for us on March 1st 1930.
Quite why the home team should be playing in white... well, perhaps that was the rule if there was a colour clash in those days.
One week later West Ham beat Arsenal 3-2 at home.
Arsenal change strip 1930....

Image
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Pop Robson
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Pop Robson »

Green Hornet wrote:The Arsenal cup tie was an away game for us on March 1st 1930.
Quite why the home team should be playing in white... well, perhaps that was the rule if there was a colour clash in those days.
One week later West Ham beat Arsenal 3-2 at home.
That clip looks like the Boleyn Ground to me, Chicken Run and the 'cage' bit in the South Bank. Low West Stand wall and dug outs when the players come out, no roof on the North Bank, it's Upton Park.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Green Hornet »

It may look that way to you but all the records indicate that the footage is from the 6th Round of the FA Cup tie March 1st, 1930 at Highbury.
http://www.westhamstats.info/westham.ph ... 1_Mar_1930" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
West Ham were the away team. They didn't score any goals. The team filmed scoring is in white shirts.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Bobby Orangeboom »

Ironworx wrote:Source - The West Ham Guardian. Date February 13th 1901.
West Ham V Luton
played at the memorial ground.
Southern league.
'West Ham did not play in their colours red white and blue but in white'.

Then what about WHU v Man Utd in 1910, this from John Northcutt....

'...As you say there was an all white strip as they also played in this in the FA Cup against Manchester United in 1910.'

There's also a short youtube clip of that game that I now cant find.
Don't forget though IW, we can't tell a great deal from Black & White Pictures can we, White, Salmon, Sky Blue or whatever a Colour shade it may be... :wink:

Seriously though, i have been under the impression for a while now after someting that i can't particulary recall but have had it in my head that an all White Kit was used by WHUFC & TI at times as an Away Kit..
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Ted Fenton »

Cuenca 'ammer wrote:All these bloody references to bunging the clothes in a washing machine....When do you think that they were invented you eedjits !!!
Hand or foot-pedal powered 'drum' washing machines were around in Victorian times. The first effective/reliable electrically powered washing machine was marketed in 1908.
This sticks in my memory because when I was young, the mother of a girl I was keen on was having problems with her washing machine. She mentioned that her parents looked at washing machines (would have been around WW1 time) but decided they were too pricey, "We couldn't afford a washing machine so the servants had to continue doing the washing by hand."
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Pop Robson »

Green Hornet wrote:It may look that way to you but all the records indicate that the footage is from the 6th Round of the FA Cup tie March 1st, 1930 at Highbury.
http://www.westhamstats.info/westham.ph ... 1_Mar_1930" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
West Ham were the away team. They didn't score any goals. The team filmed scoring is in white shirts.
I looked at that, done by legends in the WHU stats and programme collecting game. I was still not happy, so looked at pictures (online) of Highbury, still not convinced I was wrong I consulted my collection of West Ham statto books, only 1 by John Northcutt himself (The Definitive West Ham United FC)has it as a home game.

All the other books and most written by the chaps on West Ham Stats, along with various photographs state it is at Highbury.

The footage and photos don' lie though, it's the home of the Hammers, Boleyn Ground, Upton Park E13
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Norbert_Up_Norf »

I looked at that, done by legends in the WHU stats and programme collecting game. I was still not happy, so looked at pictures (online) of Highbury, still not convinced I was wrong I consulted my collection of West Ham statto books, only 1 by John Northcutt himself (The Definitive West Ham United FC)has it as a home game.

All the other books and most written by the chaps on West Ham Stats, along with various photographs state it is at Highbury.

The footage and photos don' lie though, it's the home of the Hammers, Boleyn Ground, Upton Park E13[/quote]

I agree - here's a picture of Arsenal Stadium in 1920 from the club's official website:

Image

Impossible to say definitely whether the stand to the right is roofed (as it is in the pathe footage), however the corner the picture is taken from would be where the cage was in the footage, and the ground appears to be largely 'bowled' rather than 'squared'

So unless Arsenal had major redevelopments in the 3 years from 1927-1930, the footage is the Boleyn...
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Ironworx »

There were two games against Arsenal one week apart...

The first was at Highbury, Arsenal won 3-0 in the FA cup 6th round, that was on March 1st.

On March 8th West Ham won 3-2 at the Boleyn in league division one.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Pop Robson »

Ironworx wrote:There were two games against Arsenal one week apart...

The first was at Highbury, Arsenal won 3-0 in the FA cup 6th round, that was on March 1st.

On March 8th West Ham won 3-2 at the Boleyn in league division one.
So that footage must be the second game then.


and the first was at Upton Park, 'The Essential History of WHU'............"when losing 3-0 at home to Arsenal having defeated arch rivals Millwall 4-1.........." Although in the same book on the stats page they have it as an away game,

Quite a few online statto sites have it as a Home game for us
Last edited by Pop Robson on Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ironworx
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Ironworx »

Bobby Orangeboom wrote:
Don't forget though IW, we can't tell a great deal from Black & White Pictures can we, White, Salmon, Sky Blue or whatever a Colour shade it may be... :wink:

Seriously though, i have been under the impression for a while now after someting that i can't particulary recall but have had it in my head that an all White Kit was used by WHUFC & TI at times as an Away Kit..
While that's true of a single photo or even photos, it isn't true of a train of evidence including photos and other sources.

Black and white photos are not totally useless they are just unreliable, it is possible to tell the difference between say a striped and plain kit, there may also be comparisons within the same photo like in the 1899 Thames Iron photo with two kits in the same photo...

Then if you know the colours but not the combination of them you can tell from B&W photos provided that the colours are of sufficiently different shades....

It should be borne in mind that different colours of similar darkness will appear the same in B&W photos, so if you don't know the colour then they're not much good in that respect, but where the colour is not in dispute then its a different matter....

It should be borne in mind that the photo may well not be the same as when it was taken due to deterioration over the years, it may lose mid shades to white, or it may darken so as lighter shades appear black, and it may do both of those things uniformly or patchily...

So the 1900 West Ham photo in which the kit appears white may genuinely have been white or maybe Castle blue shirts have faded through deterioration to white, there's no way of telling, the photo in itself is unreliable....

But when that photo is presented with another photo showing the same thing, a definite primary source of the same thing, and a highly probable primary source of the same thing, then it's part of a train of evidence that is much more reliable than it's individual components.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Ironworx »

Pop Robson wrote:
So that footage must be the second game then.
It would seem probable wouldn't it, the ground looks much more like the Boleyn than Highbury.

It is things like this why we have to be so careful in looking at the historical record, note how I checked on the Arsenal change strip of 1930 which checked out, and then the 1930 Stats which showed the two fixtures just a week apart which added credence to the possibility of a mix up of venues.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Ironworx »

Ted Fenton wrote: Hand or foot-pedal powered 'drum' washing machines were around in Victorian times. The first effective/reliable electrically powered washing machine was marketed in 1908.
This sticks in my memory because when I was young, the mother of a girl I was keen on was having problems with her washing machine. She mentioned that her parents looked at washing machines (would have been around WW1 time) but decided they were too pricey, "We couldn't afford a washing machine so the servants had to continue doing the washing by hand."
I think it fair to say though that most laundry done in the early 1900s would have been done in gas coppers with scrubbing boards and mangles.....
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Pop Robson »

The Complete Record 1900-1987 by John Northcutt and Roy Shoesmith

1929/30 Stats page has the FA Cup game as an away game, but on p.42 ....."The highest attendance of the season at Upton Park saw a sixth-round FA Cup tie against Arsenal"

Looks like John and Roy's stats have been copied onto various other books and the West Ham stats website, as John Northcutt own book has it down as a home game.

Even a photo in West Ham United: An Illustrated History by John and Roy again , states Highbury

Edit: Bloody statto's even they make a typo, (thats copied into almost every WHU book!)
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by The Old Mile End »

Pop Robson wrote:The Complete Record 1900-1987 by John Northcutt and Roy Shoesmith

1929/30 Stats page has the FA Cup game as an away game, but on p.42 ....."The highest attendance of the season at Upton Park saw a sixth-round FA Cup tie against Arsenal"

The FA Cup Complete Results Book by Tony Brown has this as a home game. The ground is definitely the Boleyn - the stand is the Chicken Run. The players come out from our new West Stand built in 1925. We are at home, but not playing in claret & blue for some reason. Could be light blue. Anyone worked out what the penalty was given for? They scored from the original play, so why give a penalty - and why would the Hammers defender run up the ref to protest?
So, perhaps our cup colours that season were light blue. Strange that we would wear a shirt other than claret & blue when Arsenal were playing in white.
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