1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

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Ironworx
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Ironworx »

Up the Junction wrote: Jesus H Christ :lol:

Where did that come from? It wasn't on there last week.
It's like two steps forward and one step back UtJ, just when I was thinking right all we need to do now is get rid of the Villa style 1899-1900 kit and we're fairly straight - And that bloody thing appears......

I'm not at all sure that it's not done intentionally where there's an uncertainty so as to get somebody or another to sort it....

I nailed down 1896/7, 1897/8 and 1898/9, but left1899-1900 uncertain because I couldn't find a primary reference. Then this thread nailed down 1900/01, 1901/02, and 1902/3, with John Simkin already having nailed down 1903/4.....

So 1899-1900 was the only remaining uncertainty of that era, and that appeared. Its so ludicrous that it can't possibly be right - Red rag to a bull ? I wonder :think:
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Ironworx »

mushy wrote: well thats the odd thing, nowhere on any Liverpool site I have looked at, nor on historical kits does it mention the pink shirts.
Another team that does not know its own history!
Dave Moor was as amazed by that as the rest of us, it's from a primary source and hardly likely to be wrong. I think he's going to run it before his bin dipper correspondents....

I think the thing is that when you go back to 1900 and odd football was fairly new and there was no sense of history or of recording it....

But when enough time had passed for people to think there is now a history that we should record it was too late and a lot of it had passed and been forgotten....

Leaving us to dig it out from whatever we can find that remains from the times. Yep, I doubt were the only ones with gaps to fill.....
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Ironworx »

I've just sent this e-mail to Dave Moor of Historical Kits, it is reasoned evidence for the 1899-1900 kit being light (Castle) blue shirts, white shorts, and scarlet socks....

Hi Dave.....

I have reasoned the Thames Iron colours for 1899/1900 by combining facts from various sources.

1. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/WestHamHistory.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

See here the team photo of Thames Iron 1899, without further analysis we don't know whether season 1898/9 or 1899-1900. However, note the players Tom Bradshaw in the seated row, and Bill Joyce in the row sitting on the ground.

The team group comprises of two teams one consistent with wearing the Thames Iron light blue shirts and white shorts as worn in seasons 1896/7, 1897/8, and 1898/9; the other consistent with the all white change strip. This photo has been speculated to be a training photo.

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bradshaw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note here that Bradshaw was transferred from Tottenham to Thames Iron in the summer of 1899....

Bradshaw left Liverpool in May 1898, returning briefly to Northwich Victoria before joining Tottenham Hotspur. His brief stay at Northumberland Road was marked with a little piece of history when his goal in an F A cup tie in 1899 helped Spurs become the first lower division club ever to come from behind to beat top flight opposition in the shape of Sunderland[1] . Tom then made the journey from North to East London that summer, joining Thames Ironworks, the team that would later become West Ham. He was immediately appointed as the club's captain.

3. http://www.spock.com/Bill-Joyce" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note here that Bill Joyce joined Thames Iron for the 1899-1900 season.

Bill Joyce (born April 8 1877 in Prestonpans) was a Scottish footballer who played as a forward. Joyce started his career at Greenock Morton before moving to England and Bolton Wanderers in 1884, where he suffered a broken leg in 1896. Joyce played for Tottenham, scoring 26 goals in 38 games, before joining Thames Ironworks for the 1899-1900 season (the club's last season before becoming West Ham United). He made 28 Southern League appearances for the club.


Accordingly the photo must have been taken season 1899-1900.


4. http://www.historicalkits.co.uk/West_Ha ... United.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You'll no doubt recognise this from your own site....

In 1898 "The Irons" joined the Southern League. In an article published in WHUFC Hammers Monthy Vol 1 No 2, the club's historian and programme editor, Jack Helliar, wrote, Records of the period now disclose that the Iron Works colours were red, white and blue, with Cambridge blue shorts. To date no records have come to light that describe the design of the shirts so what is presented here is an educated guess.

I point out that John Helliers description of the colours is consistent with the known colours of Thames Iron 1896/7, 1897/8 and 1898/9, that is red socks, white shorts, and blue shirts -and- consistent with the photo that has been shown to be from 1899-1900.

Cambridge blue shorts - Cambridge blue is Castle blue, so the same colour as Thames Iron shirts. They may have been worn who can say but they don't appear to be being worn in the photo.

Regards Grant Hole
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Ironworx »

Latest.....

1. Mushy - Check on Historical Kits, you've been credited.

2. The 1899-1900 Thames Ironworks kit has been amended, it's better but I still think it should have white shorts.

From the HK site: '...25 October: Research continues into the Thames Ironworks kit of 1899-1900. Grant Hole has established that this photograph from the Spartacus Educational site was taken during that season and speculates that the description provided by Jack Helliar (see 21 October) refers to their normal colours of red socks, white knickers and light blue shirts, as worn in the picture. This implies that Cambridge blue knickers were adopted sometime after the picture was taken. We hope that further information will come to light and in the meantime the 1899-1900 graphic has been amended in line with Grant's suggestion.'

Image

3. When you go to Stratford library mushy were looking for evidence of what colour shorts were worn 1899-1900, I think white but blue isn't impossible.

4. The pink Liverpool kit Mushy found reference too hasn't been listed, I assume it's still being put to the sites Liverpool correspondents.

All in all that's another step forward, were getting there.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Bobby Orangeboom »

Been away for a long weekend & have been thinking about the Thread a fair bit & how Mushy has been getting on... :lol:

Mushy, you da Man Mate, fabulous research & huge appreciation for taking the time out to go down the Library & putting this all together... :thup:

This is truly excellent findings from a Supporter & you should be proud of yourself, your now legitimately part of the Clubs History, or at least part of the piecing together of it..

The Liverpool thing is truly weird though don't we think ??

They wore the Salmon Pink that we initially thought we wore & we wore the Blue which they had as their first ever Kit albeit a few Years earlier, how ironic that is ??

http://www.lfchistory.net/viewgame.asp?game_id=4678" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.lfchistory.net/seasonsquadpi ... ason_id=87" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm still going with an earlier assumption i had that we ( including TI ) wore a variety of Colours during the period of 1895 - 1904 including Dark Blue, Light Blue, White, the " Union Jack " Shirt however that may have been & possibly Salmon/Orange/Pink ( Ted F's Grandad ) or possibly not..

Who knows, the well established Liverpool Team of that era ( 1900/1901 League Champions ) may have well felt sorry for us as we were in our Infancy & first Year as a Club that Year & left us their Salmon Pink Kit, as happened in that time frame & that's what Mr Fenton's Grandad can recall, a Game or two ( or more ) in a change if not worn every week, Salmon/Orange/Pink Shirt ??

Certainly not a certainty but shouldn't be ruled out either.

Since this all started a couple of Years back, i have done a bit of research on this whole thing ( old Shirts from a variety of Teams ) including Liverpool & haven't seen any reference at all to Salmon with them, Everton but not Liverpool...

I'm not at all saying that the Newspaper got the Shirts & Teams the wrong way round, of course i'm not & i'm not stating that we did wear the Salmon at any time but from what i've learnt about how things were in that era & how we've learnt how it's so hard to establish the actual facts of things & lack of in other areas, i just wouldn't rule certain things out entirely, that's all..

However, it's now an absolute fact thanks to Mr Mushy that the Blue was our primary Colour for the Seasons in question, between the Years of 1900 - 1903 & for that we all thank you Mate.. :crest:
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by hammerdivone »

You're determined to sell those last few shirts aren't you Bob? :lol:
Ironworx
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Ironworx »

Ironworx wrote:Latest.....

1. Mushy - Check on Historical Kits, you've been credited.

2. The 1899-1900 Thames Ironworks kit has been amended, it's better but I still think it should have white shorts.

From the HK site: '...25 October: Research continues into the Thames Ironworks kit of 1899-1900. Grant Hole has established that this photograph from the Spartacus Educational site was taken during that season and speculates that the description provided by Jack Helliar (see 21 October) refers to their normal colours of red socks, white knickers and light blue shirts, as worn in the picture. This implies that Cambridge blue knickers were adopted sometime after the picture was taken. We hope that further information will come to light and in the meantime the 1899-1900 graphic has been amended in line with Grant's suggestion.'

Image

3. When you go to Stratford library mushy were looking for evidence of what colour shorts were worn 1899-1900, I think white but blue isn't impossible.


4. The pink Liverpool kit Mushy found reference too hasn't been listed, I assume it's still being put to the sites Liverpool correspondents.

All in all that's another step forward, were getting there.

Also this to me from John Northcutt....

'.... Ist September 1900 the first game as West Ham United. The committee had made a slight change to the colours. Instead of light blue shirts, white shorts and claret stockings, a claret stripe went down the white shorts and the stockings were all black.'

That was amongst a number of quotes that John took from the two books 'Iron in the Blood' and 'Irons of the South'.

I've forwarded it to Historical Kits as further evidence for 1899/1900.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Albie Beck »

hammerdivone wrote:You're determined to sell those last few shirts aren't you Bob? :lol:
He's trying to work out how to change those crossed hammers into a scraggy looking bird.... :lol:
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by hammer »

hammerdivone wrote:You're determined to sell those last few shirts aren't you Bob? :lol:
Albie Beck wrote:He's trying to work out how to change those crossed hammers into a scraggy looking bird.... :lol:
:lol:
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Coley »

Top work all you lads and especially Mushy for putting your time and leg work into this fantastic thread.
Not only are you solidifying the history of our own club, but also finding info on others. The Liverpool tie in is also fascinating.
Has anyone thrown a link to this on Rad and White Kop as someone there might know someone or something about it?
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Ironworx »

Coley wrote:Top work all you lads and especially Mushy for putting your time and leg work into this fantastic thread.
Not only are you solidifying the history of our own club, but also finding info on others. The Liverpool tie in is also fascinating.
Has anyone thrown a link to this on Rad and White Kop as someone there might know someone or something about it?
The Liverpool info is with Dave Moor of Historical Kits, I don't think he's altered the site to include it, I think he's running it past some of his Liverpool correspondents. That's as much as I'm going to do with it, it's taking nearly all of my spare time just getting the Thames Ironworks and early WHU right....

Not far to go with that, just the 1896 Oxford / Harrovian blue Thames Ironworks kit to get added, the info for that is with Dave Moor and it should be acceptable enough for it to be added....

And the 1899-1900 Thames Ironworks kit to get right, its almost there, it just needs white shorts now, and I sent more info to Dave Moor last night that should be enough to get that change...

Then provided nothing more that's dodgy is added all will be correct right through from 1895 to 1905, whereas at least half of it was either wrong or totally missing until very recently...

And the correct information is already spreading to other sites, It'll be a good job done when its complete. There's another gap 1906 to 1927 that really needs attention too but that will be traditional claret and blue with differences maybe in socks, cuffs, collars.....
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by mushy »

Ironworx wrote:

The Liverpool info is with Dave Moor of Historical Kits, I don't think he's altered the site to include it, I think he's running it past some of his Liverpool correspondents. That's as much as I'm going to do with it, it's taking nearly all of my spare time just getting the Thames Ironworks and early WHU right....

Not far to go with that, just the 1896 Oxford / Harrovian blue Thames Ironworks kit to get added, the info for that is with Dave Moor and it should be acceptable enough for it to be added....

And the 1899-1900 Thames Ironworks kit to get right, its almost there, it just needs white shorts now, and I sent more info to Dave Moor last night that should be enough to get that change...

Then provided nothing more that's dodgy is added all will be correct right through from 1895 to 1905, whereas at least half of it was either wrong or totally missing until very recently...

And the correct information is already spreading to other sites, It'll be a good job done when its complete. There's another gap 1906 to 1927 that really needs attention too but that will be traditional claret and blue with differences maybe in socks, cuffs, collars.....
Am back in the library tomorrow and will be on the 1899-1900 season like a rash.
As for Liverpool I guess its their call and one of theirs should pop down to the Liverpool library and dig out old copies of the Liverpool Echo or something, buggered if I am going to do it.

Oh the joys of no work..............
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by FDiMcA »

Bobby Orangeboom wrote: i'm not stating that we did wear the Salmon at any time but from what i've learnt about how things were in that era & how we've learnt how it's so hard to establish the actual facts of things & lack of in other areas, i just wouldn't rule certain things out entirely, that's all..
:
Ironworx wrote: refers to their normal colours of red socks,
.
Also Bobby dont rule out what we could learn about the reliability of washing machines for mudded garments, boil was, and the technology in laundry powders back them.

Even today sometimes I end up with pink underwear :shock:
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Ironworx »

mushy wrote:
Am back in the library tomorrow and will be on the 1899-1900 season like a rash.
As for Liverpool I guess its their call and one of theirs should pop down to the Liverpool library and dig out old copies of the Liverpool Echo or something, buggered if I am going to do it.

Oh the joys of no work..............
That's great, anything 1899-1900 will be of interest - As for Liverpool I've passed it on to the right bloke, it's now up to others to deal with that, as you say I don't see why we should it's enough work putting our own house in order......
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by hammerdivone »

FDiMcA wrote:Even today sometimes I end up with pink underwear :shock:
Stop nicking it from peoples washing lines then Fiddy :lol:
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by mushy »

Bobby Orangeboom wrote:Been away for a long weekend & have been thinking about the Thread a fair bit & how Mushy has been getting on... :lol:

Mushy, you da Man Mate, fabulous research & huge appreciation for taking the time out to go down the Library & putting this all together... :thup:

This is truly excellent findings from a Supporter & you should be proud of yourself, your now legitimately part of the Clubs History, or at least part of the piecing together of it..

The Liverpool thing is truly weird though don't we think ??

They wore the Salmon Pink that we initially thought we wore & we wore the Blue which they had as their first ever Kit albeit a few Years earlier, how ironic that is ??

http://www.lfchistory.net/viewgame.asp?game_id=4678" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.lfchistory.net/seasonsquadpi ... ason_id=87" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm still going with an earlier assumption i had that we ( including TI ) wore a variety of Colours during the period of 1895 - 1904 including Dark Blue, Light Blue, White, the " Union Jack " Shirt however that may have been & possibly Salmon/Orange/Pink ( Ted F's Grandad ) or possibly not..

Who knows, the well established Liverpool Team of that era ( 1900/1901 League Champions ) may have well felt sorry for us as we were in our Infancy & first Year as a Club that Year & left us their Salmon Pink Kit, as happened in that time frame & that's what Mr Fenton's Grandad can recall, a Game or two ( or more ) in a change if not worn every week, Salmon/Orange/Pink Shirt ??

Certainly not a certainty but shouldn't be ruled out either.

Since this all started a couple of Years back, i have done a bit of research on this whole thing ( old Shirts from a variety of Teams ) including Liverpool & haven't seen any reference at all to Salmon with them, Everton but not Liverpool...

I'm not at all saying that the Newspaper got the Shirts & Teams the wrong way round, of course i'm not & i'm not stating that we did wear the Salmon at any time but from what i've learnt about how things were in that era & how we've learnt how it's so hard to establish the actual facts of things & lack of in other areas, i just wouldn't rule certain things out entirely, that's all..

However, it's now an absolute fact thanks to Mr Mushy that the Blue was our primary Colour for the Seasons in question, between the Years of 1900 - 1903 & for that we all thank you Mate.. :crest:
Bobby,
I would not rule out anything at this stage (apart from that terrible striped shirt that has now gone).
For instance there is not much around about alternate shirts -or away shirts as we now call them.
As a for instance it came to light only last week (I think) that we were wearing an all white alternate kit in 1901, something that I dont believe had been mentioned before. Anything is possible.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Ironworx »

mushy wrote:
Bobby,
I would not rule out anything at this stage (apart from that terrible striped shirt that has now gone).
For instance there is not much around about alternate shirts -or away shirts as we now call them.
As a for instance it came to light only last week (I think) that we were wearing an all white alternate kit in 1901, something that I dont believe had been mentioned before. Anything is possible.
There's quite a bit of evidence amounting for the all white kit....

Half of this late 1899 Thames Iron team photo look like they're wearing white...

Image

Then this 1900 WHU team group looks white doesn't it....

Image

Then there's the reference from the library.....

Source - The West Ham Guardian. Date February 13th 1901.
West Ham V Luton
played at the memorial ground.
Southern league.
'West Ham did not play in their colours red white and blue but in white'.

Then what about WHU v Man Utd in 1910, this from John Northcutt....

'...As you say there was an all white strip as they also played in this in the FA Cup against Manchester United in 1910.'

There's also a short youtube clip of that game that I now cant find.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Green Hornet »

FA Cup 5th Round 1929
Bournemouth v West Ham
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=48808" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They really went after goalies in those days
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by Green Hornet »

Bit puzzled by this one. Arsenal are in white. I know I'm 'colour blind' but the West Ham sleeves look the same colour as the main body of the shirt ?
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=22062" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Post by John Simkin »

Green Hornet wrote:FA Cup 5th Round 1929
Bournemouth v West Ham
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=48808" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They really went after goalies in those days
Thank you for that. The match took place at Dean Court (attendance 11,346). The game resulted in a 1-1 draw. Tommy Yews got the goal for the Hammers. He also got one of the goals in the 3-1 victory at Upton Park (attendance 30,217). Unfortunately, West Ham was knocked out in the next round by Portsmouth. Jim Barrett got both goals in the 3-2 defeat.
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