1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

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1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

Postby Ironworx on Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:09 pm

Light (Castle) blue with a claret band, not pink with a black band....

I've been liaising with Steve Marsh of the 'They Fly So High' website and as a result he has posted this on his site:

'...When Brentford came to Canning Town for the opening home game of the 1901-02 season on 14th September, the home team took to the field wearing their new colours of light blue jerseys, with a red/claret band, and white knickers with a red stripe for the first time. The strip became known in the press as the “Union Jack”.

I have informed Dave Moor of Historical kits.

So, just the 1900/01 WHU kit (Which surely after this will turn out to be Castle blue too) and the 1899 Thames Ironworks kit (Which I believe was also Castle blue) to nail down....

I'm working on it :crest:
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

Postby Ironworx on Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:07 pm

We now have 1899 Thames Ironworks kit nailed down too:

'...A second reference to club colours comes at the end of February 1899 when, the club arranged a friendly at Eastbourne FC, who paid professional clubs a fee to visit their Sussex ground. The local newspaper correspondent was full of praise for Ironworks, declaring, after their 3-1 victory. “A prettier and more distinctive costume than theirs I have never yet seen on a football ground. Light blue shirts, white knickers and scarlet stockings were their colours'.

That's a continuation of the 1897 and 1898 kit into 1899. Surely with Castle blue in 1899 and in 1901 with a claret band the 1900 kit was Castle blue too...

Again accreditation to Steve Marsh, and Dave Moor of Historical Kits informed :crest:
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

Postby Bobby Orangeboom on Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:35 am

That's great Grant but it's only re quoting what we learnt in the previous Thread, through the Links to it anyway so nothing new in my eyes..

As i believe i said previously, it needs to be established what/where this " Local Newspaper " is/was, that's the key..

Ironworx wrote:'...A second reference to club colours comes at the end of February 1899 when, the club arranged a friendly at Eastbourne FC, who paid professional clubs a fee to visit their Sussex ground. The local newspaper correspondent was full of praise for Ironworks, declaring, after their 3-1 victory. “A prettier and more distinctive costume than theirs I have never yet seen on a football ground. Light blue shirts, white knickers and scarlet stockings were their colours'.


No disrespect at all Grant & i'm sure i speak on behalf of others along with myself, but i'm completely aware how things like this can be manipulated by those who, for whatever reasons, want them to be so again, in my eyes & unless i see this " local newspaper ", it doesn't strike me as " Categorical Evidence ".. :wink:

Not sure why you'd be crediting Steve Marsh Grant, you've confused me, are you crediting because he's added this, that we've all read before, on to his Site ??

& with regards to Mr Moor, we're all aware that he regulary has incorrect information on his Site not just on WHUFC but a whole host of other Clubs also so don't give too much credence to that...

& any info at all you get from John Hellier Grant, i'd love ot see it if you wouldn't mind & i'd gladly PM you my Email address, hope you informed him that in his Programme from the T*ttenham Game, he got the Years on the 2 Pictures wrong also... :thup:
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

Postby Bobby Orangeboom on Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:39 am

PS : Just wanted to say that in no way at all am i accusing you of manipulation Grant but haveing read through the below thread, anyone with half a brain & who understands the workings of the internet & the Sheep that believe what they read no matter how polluted it is, would understand what i mean.. :thup:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=116617&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=1903
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

Postby Ironworx on Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:18 am

I'm sorry Bobby but the 1901/02 situation is now resolved enough for me.

1897, 1898, and 1899 Light (castle) blue shirts 100% definite. There are three contemporaneous reports that state the colours, and we know that it was Old Castle Swifts kit.

We also know that claret was the commercial colour of the Thames Ironworks, again more than one source for that. We know exactly where light blue and claret came from.

1900 we have no evidence for, other than a team photo which is in black and white so inconclusive.

1901/02 we have the contemporaneous report for, there is no reason that I'm aware of as to why anybody should want to falsify that, it is such a detailed report that its good enough for me when backed by the rest of the overall scenario, it even gives the team played against - Brentford.

1903 Ironworks Claret and Castle blue in the modern combination 100%, we have both match and team photos showing it.

The history is of blue, and I have to ask myself where is there room for pink fitting into that ? It would have needed to have appeared from no historical background lingered for a couple of seasons and disappeared again even more unexplainedly given that we also know that South West Ham FC were called 'Pink Uns'.

I've looked into this dispassionately wanting to establish what the colours actually were, and all I've found is evidence for blue.

I have to conclude that Historical Kits had it wrong - It's unfortunate but they did, it wouldn't have been intentional and I'm sure that they would have preferred otherwise.

I will continue trying to find contemporaneous evidence for the 1900/01 kit without the band, but there comes the point in drawing a complete blank with pink where I have to draw the line under 1902/03 kit with the band.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

Postby I8CHAVS on Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:20 am

:lol:
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

Postby red iron on Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:23 am

Ironworx wrote:I'm sorry Bobby but the 1901/02 situation is now resolved enough for me.


I thought you were a highly qualified professor?? you should know better!! tsk tsk :wink:
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

Postby roblo on Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:24 am

As a history graduate I'm finding this discussion thrilling.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

Postby Georgee Paris on Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:32 am

As an utter weirdo so am I!
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

Postby Arch Dandy on Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:37 am

So Bobby mugged everyone off to shift a load of pink shirts then?
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

Postby Up the Junction on Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:39 am

Ironworx wrote:I've looked into this dispassionately wanting to establish what the colours actually were, and all I've found is evidence for blue.

Just because we have evidence for one doesn't necessarily mean we didn't wear the other too. I think were I a historian I'd like more evidence than one solo newspaper report. Did Brentford play in red back then too? Would possibly have clashed with pink, necessitating a change of shirt for one of the two teams ...

Is it also not possible that due to the close proximity of the clubs that we may have 'borrowed' the SWH pink kit occasionally? Blue being a fairly popular colour in terms of football shirts, there must have been occasions where an alternative kit was required.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

Postby Ironworx on Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:40 am

red iron wrote:
I thought you were a highly qualified professor?? you should know better!! tsk tsk :wink:


Highly qualified yes, in science, professor no...

Is the evidence good enough for a scientific assertion - No, but historians don't work to scientific standards of proof. Working to a historians standards of proof I have found plenty of evidence for blue but none at all for pink, by a historians standard of proof I now need to make the call.

There comes a point when all you're finding is blue and the only pink that you find is related to a team with a very similar name such that it is very plausible that confusion between the two may have taken place......

There has to be a reasonable cut off point, and I believe that with the 1901/02 kit that has been reached.

The bottom line is that there needs to be some evidence for pink but none has been forthcoming.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

Postby Up the Junction on Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:44 am

You're going to like this ... look what Brentford were wearing in 1902/03:

http://www.historicalkits.co.uk/Brentford/Brentford.htm
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

Postby Ironworx on Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:49 am

Up the Junction wrote:Just because we have evidence for one doesn't necessarily mean we didn't wear the other too. I think were I a historian I'd like more evidence than one solo newspaper report. Did Brentford play in red back then too? Would certainly have clashed with pink, necessitating a change of shirt for one of the two teams ...

Is it also not possible that due to the close proximity of the clubs that we may have 'borrowed' the SWH pink kit occasionally? Blue being a fairly popular colour in terms of football shirts, there must have been occasions where an alternative kit was required.


There are always possibilities UTJ, but those that you highlight could equally well apply to green, yellow, or orange as well as pink.

I have found no evidence for any colours other than light (Castle) blue and claret.

In the absence of finding any evidence for pink other than related to South West Ham the line has to be drawn somewhere.

There needs to be some evidence FOR pink is the bottom line and I hav'nt been able to find any.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

Postby Ironworx on Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:52 am

Up the Junction wrote:You're going to like this ... look what Brentford were wearing in 1902/03:

http://www.historicalkits.co.uk/Brentford/Brentford.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Yes, that's fine, the report is of West Ham wearing a castle blue shirt with a claret band, given Brentfords colours were claret and blue too it is more probable than not that they as the away team changed. Its not inconsistent with the report.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

Postby Up the Junction on Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:59 am

Ironworx wrote:Yes, that's fine, the report is of West Ham wearing a castle blue shirt with a claret band, given Brentfords colours were claret and blue too it is more probable than not that they as the away team changed. Its not inconsistent with the report.

Are you sure about that Ironworx? My understanding is that prior to the war (possibly even later) it was customary for the home side to provide the change strip. Plus I thought the 'Union Jack' kit reference came from another year, possibly later?

Ironworx wrote:I have found no evidence for any colours other than light (Castle) blue and claret.

This isn't strictly true as I believe your research suggested that our closest neighbours wore pink. We also know that teams borrowed kits from each other during this period.

Prior to this latest revelation there was no evidence that we played in a blue shirt during that period either. Where did Historical Kits get their original info from re:the pink shirts; do we know?
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

Postby red iron on Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:05 pm

Ironworx wrote:Highly qualified yes, in science, professor no...

Is the evidence good enough for a scientific assertion - No, but historians don't work to scientific standards of proof. Working to a historians standards of proof I have found plenty of evidence for blue but none at all for pink, by a historians standard of proof I now need to make the call.

There comes a point when all you're finding is blue and the only pink that you find is related to a team with a very similar name such that it is very plausible that confusion between the two may have taken place......

There has to be a reasonable cut off point, and I believe that with the 1901/02 kit that has been reached.

The bottom line is that there needs to be some evidence for pink but none has been forthcoming.


I was joking, but on a more serious note.... I'm a third year history student at notts uni so I do understand historical standards for proof. Unfortunately they pretty much don't exist as there is often not enough evidence available to actually prove anything!!

While I do think what you've found is interesting and you've clearly backed it up (albeit perhaps dubiously, I don't know) with some accounts. I'm not sure there's enough evidence to say conclusively one way or the other, certainly as a history student I wouldn't accept your conclusion as fact.

However, having said that, It would be foolish to ignore your findings. Personally I think you need more research and evidence before you can make a more definite judgement but your work is interesting and I wish you luck with it :thup:
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

Postby Ted Fenton on Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:11 pm

Up the Junction wrote:Are you sure about that Ironworx? My understanding is that prior to the war (possibly even later) it was customary for the home side to provide the change strip.

That's what I was told by my elders and betters. From personal experience, it was certainly the case for FA Cup matches well into the 1950s, maybe into the 1960s.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

Postby Up the Junction on Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:17 pm

Thanks Ted :thup:

I was reading a old programme from the mid 1970s recently that confirmed our away kit would be changing from sky blue shirts with claret and blue bands to all white. I'm pretty sure there was something in there about the history of alternative kits, I'll see if I can dig it out.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

Postby Ironworx on Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:55 pm

Up the Junction wrote:Where did Historical Kits get their original info from re:the pink shirts; do we know?


No we don't know. Pink shirts were listed by Historical Kits and that is the only reason to think pink as it were, I have been in touch with Dave Moor of Historical Kits and all that emerged is that the evidence he had for blue was better than pink, although that much could probably have be taken as obvious given as he changed the listing from pink to blue.

I have found nothing anywhere else for pink related to WHU - Other than the old HK listing pink and WHU is a complete blank, nothing.

Castle blue / TIW / WHU and there are references everywhere. There are specific references which need to be doubted to discredit them, there is a known background to where Castle blue came from, there is an evolution of kit from Castle blue, to Castle blue with claret, to claret with Castle blue, the score is Castle blue 250 - 1 pink as it were.

Borrowing kits from other clubs, don't even go there. The area was awash with clubs circa 1900, every riverside industrial concern and dock basin had its team, plus non river related teams such as Boleyn Castle FC as just one example, it would be possible to make a case for practically any colour on that basis.

The only reference to pink I found at all is South West Ham FC playing at the Tidal Basin, while in 1900 on the formation of WHU games were played at the Memorial Ground.

To be honest UTJ I cant even begin to make any case for pink as I've found nothing at all to support it.
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