1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was.................

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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Might Have Been.................

Postby mushy on Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:25 pm

Pop Robson wrote:I posted this about a week ago, it came from a Jack Helliar Hammers Monthly which was out in around 82/83 for 9 issues

Hammers Monthy Vol 1 No 2: Helliar's Hammers History Part Two. By Jack Helliar Programme Editor WHUFC

"On March 10 1900, there were 10,000 fans at the Memorial Grounds for the visit of Sp*rs in a Southern League game. The 0-7 reverse eariler in the season was avenged in as much that he Works forced a goal-less draw, depsite Syd Kig breaking an ankle that kept him out of action until the October of the following season. Records of the period now disclose that the Iron Works colours were red, white and blue, with Cambridge blue shorts."

Hammers Monthy Vol 1 No 1: Helliar's Hammers History Part One. By Jack Helliar Programme Editor WHUFC, writing about the TIW early years,

"The club colours were apparently red,white and blue, although the exact composition is not recorded in any history that I have come across. This possibly was because the Works founder Arnold Hills - was obviously a great patriot and the works had intimate connections with the Royal Navy"


Yes, this is interesting in the fact that I read that report from the West Ham Guardian for that game and also the 0-7 reverse at their place earlier in the season.At no stage does the report in the Guardian mention the colour of the kits so would be intersted to know where Jack Helliar gleamed his info from.
The other problem we have is that the Guardian does not go into detailed match reports for the Thames Ironworks and hence very little as regard the kit colours until we became West Ham United in 1900. From then on we are always the lead article in the sports section.
I may have to switch to the Stratford Express for Thames Ironworks days although someone has mentioned the West Ham Gazette which maybe another primary source worth looking at.
By the way it appears we were kicked off the park during the 0-7 reverse and there were even allegations that the Spurs players had sharpened their studs.We ended up with half the team injured and unable to play for several weeks, this led to a slump of form that nearly got us relegated. Cheating bastards. is it too late to hold an FA enquiry?
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Pop Robson on Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:36 pm

Mushy
if your not too busy!!! try these from Belton's Founded on Iron biblography
'East and West Ham Gazette' 10 Nov 1888 and the 'Stratford Express' 25 Oct & 1 Nov 1884 and 17 Sept 1890

Iron in the Blood lists: West Ham and Stratford Express 1884-1887, West Ham, East Ham and Stratford Express 1894-1901, West Ham Herald and South Essex Gazette 1892-1902, West Ham Guardian 1898-1902,

South Essex Mail is another, I've seen a drawn picture from

Is there photocopying available on any of the reference material at Stratford library?
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Might Have Been.................

Postby Up the Junction on Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:44 pm

Ironworx wrote:This thread works doesn't it...

Yes it does, credit to everyone involved but mostly yourself and Mushy who have gone beyond the call of duty, so to speak.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Green Hornet on Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:45 pm

Just a passing reference to the 1930 FA Cup footage against Arsenal.
I'm certainly convinced now that the Pathé news footage is the Cup tie and the game took place at the Boleyn Ground.

For me the clincher is the cover of the programme visible in the Ebay link I supplied a couple pages back. It's definitely a West Ham programme and the word Arsenal appears twice on the front page, the second at the bottom probably signifies the next home game.

Then there is the FA Cup logo at the top of the inter-title during the Pathé news clip. The only way it might not be the Cup tie footage is if Pathé inserted the wrong titles in the footage which is very unlikely. The FA Cup was a prestigious tournament in those days and it's much more likely they would film an all London Cup tie rather than a league game.

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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby mushy on Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:47 pm

Pop Robson wrote:Mushy
if your not too busy!!! try these from Belton's Founded on Iron biblography
'East and West Ham Gazette' 10 Nov 1888 and the 'Stratford Express' 25 Oct & 1 Nov 1884 and 17 Sept 1890

Iron in the Blood lists: West Ham and Stratford Express 1884-1887, West Ham, East Ham and Stratford Express 1894-1901, West Ham Herald and South Essex Gazette 1892-1902, West Ham Guardian 1898-1902,

South Essex Mail is another, I've seen a drawn picture from

Is there photocopying available on any of the reference material at Stratford library?


Ok cheers, not sure about some of those dates though!
Yes there is photocopying there but have not yet mastered how to copy from microfilm yet, I shall ask the nice lady.
I see you can get archive Stratford Express online, anyone any idea how far this goes back? It says it is subscription.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Might Have Been.................

Postby Ironworx on Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:51 pm

Pop Robson wrote:
I posted this about a week ago, it came from a Jack Helliar Hammers Monthly which was out in around 82/83 for 9 issues

Hammers Monthy Vol 1 No 2: Helliar's Hammers History Part Two. By Jack Helliar Programme Editor WHUFC

"On March 10 1900, there were 10,000 fans at the Memorial Grounds for the visit of Sp*rs in a Southern League game. The 0-7 reverse eariler in the season was avenged in as much that he Works forced a goal-less draw, depsite Syd Kig breaking an ankle that kept him out of action until the October of the following season. Records of the period now disclose that the Iron Works colours were red, white and blue, with Cambridge blue shorts."

Hammers Monthy Vol 1 No 1: Helliar's Hammers History Part One. By Jack Helliar Programme Editor WHUFC, writing about the TIW early years,

"The club colours were apparently red,white and blue, although the exact composition is not recorded in any history that I have come across. This possibly was because the Works founder Arnold Hills - was obviously a great patriot and the works had intimate connections with the Royal Navy"


Yes but did Brian Belton take it from there, or did Jack Hellier take it from Brian Belton, it's been copied one way or the other. And wherever it originated what's the original source ? It's all well and good saying records of the period disclose, but where and what are those records ?

The problem is that there's no shortage of books and articles on the clubs history that all mention colours in passing but don't reference anything colour related, because they're writing accounts of events and the colours are just an interesting happened to be.

It is revealing that the only definite references that we have are photographs, the facts that has Mushy found at Stratford library, and the facts that I found a couple of years ago when writing the matchday programme article...

There's no shortage of very good TIW / WHU history books but there is nothing that focusses just on the development of the kit.

It is dawning on me that if we are to make meaningful progress then I need to write that focus on the development of the kit, the exact opposite of the club history books that we already have ample of...

A focus on the colours that references the colours to primary sources and which only covers the history of the club in passing. It's clear that's not been done. I doubt that it would end up large enough to be a book, but it would likely be too large for an article, and it would need online hosting too that UtJ has already said would be good so far as he's concerned.

It's clear that the early colours history is in a hell of a state, this thread has clarified about half of it in the passed few weeks. I think we should go on now and write the definitive account, nail it down 100% so as when people say what were the colours in eighteen ninety whatever the answer is the KUMB guide is THE reference.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Might Have Been.................

Postby mushy on Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:01 pm

Up the Junction wrote:Yes it does, credit to everyone involved but mostly yourself and Mushy who have gone beyond the call of duty, so to speak.


Also a word of thanks to 'Old Mile End' who along with 'Ironworx' set me off in the right direction.
Good work indeed!
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Ironworx on Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:05 pm

Pop Robson wrote:Mushy
if your not too busy!!! try these from Belton's Founded on Iron biblography
'East and West Ham Gazette' 10 Nov 1888 and the 'Stratford Express' 25 Oct & 1 Nov 1884 and 17 Sept 1890

Iron in the Blood lists: West Ham and Stratford Express 1884-1887, West Ham, East Ham and Stratford Express 1894-1901, West Ham Herald and South Essex Gazette 1892-1902, West Ham Guardian 1898-1902,

South Essex Mail is another, I've seen a drawn picture from

Is there photocopying available on any of the reference material at Stratford library?


Are those 1880 odd dates in the book Pop ? If they are then I can only think that they refer to pre Thames Ironworks teams - Castle Swifts, Old St Lukes and the like....

I'll start work on a time line tonight that I can fit all the primary references and photos into, anything that you can find Mushy I'll incorporate into it and that will give us an insight as to where the gaps are. But I already know that 1896/7 is a definite gap.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Pop Robson on Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:58 pm

Green Hornet wrote:Just a passing reference to the 1930 FA Cup footage against Arsenal.
I'm certainly convinced now that the Pathé news footage is the Cup tie and the game took place at the Boleyn Ground.

For me the clincher is the cover of the programme visible in the Ebay link I supplied a couple pages back. It's definitely a West Ham programme and the word Arsenal appears twice on the front page, the second at the bottom probably signifies the next home game.

Then there is the FA Cup logo at the top of the inter-title during the Pathé news clip. The only way it might not be the Cup tie footage is if Pathé inserted the wrong titles in the footage which is very unlikely. The FA Cup was a prestigious tournament in those days and it's much more likely they would film an all London Cup tie rather than a league game.

As you were


The text in the books has it down as a home cup tie, it's just the stats page that has is down as an away, so probably just a typo in Northcutt's and Shoesmith first statto book 'WHU The Complete Record 1900-1987'.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Might Have Been.................

Postby Pop Robson on Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:02 pm

Ironworx wrote:Yes but did Brian Belton take it from there, or did Jack Hellier take it from Brian Belton, it's been copied one way or the other. And wherever it originated what's the original source ? It's all well and good saying records of the period disclose, but where and what are those records ?

The problem is that there's no shortage of books and articles on the clubs history that all mention colours in passing but don't reference anything colour related, because they're writing accounts of events and the colours are just an interesting happened to be.

It is revealing that the only definite references that we have are photographs, the facts that has Mushy found at Stratford library, and the facts that I found a couple of years ago when writing the matchday programme article...

There's no shortage of very good TIW / WHU history books but there is nothing that focusses just on the development of the kit.

It is dawning on me that if we are to make meaningful progress then I need to write that focus on the development of the kit, the exact opposite of the club history books that we already have ample of...

A focus on the colours that references the colours to primary sources and which only covers the history of the club in passing. It's clear that's not been done. I doubt that it would end up large enough to be a book, but it would likely be too large for an article, and it would need online hosting too that UtJ has already said would be good so far as he's concerned.

It's clear that the early colours history is in a hell of a state, this thread has clarified about half of it in the passed few weeks. I think we should go on now and write the definitive account, nail it down 100% so as when people say what were the colours in eighteen ninety whatever the answer is the KUMB guide is THE reference.


Well I'd have to go for Belton taking it from Helliar as, the Helliar article was 20 years before Belton's book.

Then again they could have both accessed the original details from the same source.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Might Have Been.................

Postby Ironworx on Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:46 pm

Pop Robson wrote:
Well I'd have to go for Belton taking it from Helliar as, the Helliar article was 20 years before Belton's book.

Then again they could have both accessed the original details from the same source.


You're probably right Pop, but the take home message for us is that if you make a statement based on a source then it's not much use unless you include the source.

We need to reference our sources with any statements we make, as an example:

November 27th 1897 Novocastrians vs Thames Ironworks at Ponders End in the London Senior Cup, the Irons win 3-1 and a commentator remarks: '...The Ironworks appeared on the field with brand new white spotless clean knickers and light blue shirts, but before they had been playing long they were like blackamoors, to the huge delight of the Novo's spectators.' Iron in the Blood, John Powles, P61/2.

It hasn't been done by others because they were writing history of the club books, not history of the club colours books.

And even that isn't an ideal, because an ideal would be based on a primary source, this would be ideal:

For season 1900/01 black socks were worn and a claret stripe was added to the white shorts: '...The committee have wisely decided not to have such a conspicuous display of red, white and blue this year. The vermilion stockings have been replaced by black and a red stripe is run down the leg of the trousers'. West Ham Guardian, Wednesday Sept 5th 1900, available Stratford Library.

That type of referencing allows the reader, should they wish to, to go straight to the source themselves, and none of this uncertainty and conflicting information can occur.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Ironworx on Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:59 pm

Right, I've finished a timeline and entered all the primary sources into it, and we have....

1895/6 - Two photographs.

1896/7 - Nothing.

1897/8 - One quote.

1898/9 - One quote.

1899/1900 - One photo and one quote from the next season referring back.

1900/01 - One photo, four quotes.

1901/02 - One photo, two quotes.

It's a good start but it needs adding to.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby mushy on Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:20 pm

Ironworx wrote:Right, I've finished a timeline and entered all the primary sources into it, and we have....

1895/6 - Two photographs.

1896/7 - Nothing.
1897/8 - One quote.

1898/9 - One quote.

1899/1900 - One photo and one quote from the next season referring back.

1900/01 - One photo, four quotes.

1901/02 - One photo, two quotes.

It's a good start but it needs adding to.



And still nothing, bit of a frustrating day I am afraid, went through the Stratford Express and the West Ham Herald and never got a sniff of any kit news. The East Ham Echo based on past experience is probably a waste of time as is the Guardian pre-1899.

There is however a glimmer of hope, the nice lady down there has put me in touch with someone in Plaistow with a large set of archives (including most of the stuff that used to be in the West Ham museum), she seems to think that this is mostly old stuff but we will have to wait and see.

As for the papers its a real shame as the Herald has really good write-ups for that season, including games not actually listed in John Northcutts official history -but nowt on the kits.When i next go I will check on the start of the 1897 season to see if there is any retrospective articles as before.
My only other lead is a relative of the Cearns, could be a long shot but you never know.

I started to think all this was easy after my first visit but am just learning the resons why maybe actually knows what colour the kit is for that season, maybe it was never recorded!


Apologies for the lack of new news.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby cockney hammer on Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:22 pm

keep up the fantastic work mate :thup:
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Ironworx on Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:51 pm

mushy wrote:

And still nothing, bit of a frustrating day I am afraid, went through the Stratford Express and the West Ham Herald and never got a sniff of any kit news. The East Ham Echo based on past experience is probably a waste of time as is the Guardian pre-1899.

There is however a glimmer of hope, the nice lady down there has put me in touch with someone in Plaistow with a large set of archives (including most of the stuff that used to be in the West Ham museum), she seems to think that this is mostly old stuff but we will have to wait and see.

As for the papers its a real shame as the Herald has really good write-ups for that season, including games not actually listed in John Northcutts official history -but nowt on the kits.When i next go I will check on the start of the 1897 season to see if there is any retrospective articles as before.
My only other lead is a relative of the Cearns, could be a long shot but you never know.

I started to think all this was easy after my first visit but am just learning the resons why maybe actually knows what colour the kit is for that season, maybe it was never recorded!


Apologies for the lack of new news.



No need to apologise, you did your best. Research can be a thankless task when nothing shows up, I know the feeling well, but the rush when you find something that's news to everybody is something that's unforgettable. The highs are very high, and the lows can be very low.....

Iron in the Blood by John Powles lists as sources....

Ironworks Gazette 1895-1905

Borough of West Ham and Stratford Express 1887-1894 (That's before TIWFC though)

Borough of West Ham, East Ham, and Stratford Express 1894-1901

West Ham Herald and South Essex Gazette 1892-1899

County Borough of West Ham Guardian 1898-1902

I'm going to try to get over there to put some time in myself, I'll get stuck into the Ironworks Gazette.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Pop Robson on Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:02 am

Ironworx wrote:Iron in the Blood by John Powles lists as sources....

Ironworks Gazette 1895-1905

Borough of West Ham and Stratford Express 1887-1894 (That's before TIWFC though)

Borough of West Ham, East Ham, and Stratford Express 1894-1901

West Ham Herald and South Essex Gazette 1892-1899

County Borough of West Ham Guardian 1898-1902

I'm going to try to get over there to put some time in myself, I'll get stuck into the Ironworks Gazette.


Is it worth me posting on this topic anymore, I feel my posts get ignored :think:
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Ironworx on Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:38 am

I did note your post in passing but as it was of value to Mushy at the library but not to me working from the computer where I don't have access to publications like that I didn't take thorough note of it I. I had thought it was from the Brian Belton book......
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Ironworx on Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:55 am

Latest....

Dave Moor of Historical Kits has contacted me, he has run my 1899-1900 reasonings from the 1899 photo, and the quote found by Mushy at the library before John Powles, and John Powles agreed so the 1899 kit on HK is now correct....

To my eye, on what is known, the only thing now wrong on the HK site 1895 - 1905 is the 1896 shirt badge - And that's my fault !

I informed Dave Moor wrongly on that, I believed it to be a City of London red cross on white background but on obtaining a better photoprint and taking a magnifying glass to that it is in fact a union jack.

Mushy.... It has occurred to me that we are looking at the TIW / WHU end of the reporting at Stratford library and that probably just as much stuff is spread about other towns in the form of reports written by newspapers covering the teams we played against.....

What I'll do is make an alphabetical list of the teams we played and on what dates, then I'll contact the teams where they still exist asking if I can speak to their historian, maybe some original material can be obtained in that way...

Dave Moor has asked me to pass on his gratitude to you :clap:
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Ironworx on Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:02 am

From Historical Kits....

30 October: Quite what Thames Ironworks wore in 1899-1900 has engaged the attention of John Powles (author of Iron in the Blood and Irons of the South), Grant Hole and Mushy, all of whom have been in touch this week. Grant and Mushy have been combing through the newspaper archives and their conclusion, which is supported by John, is that they wore light blue shirts, white knickers and vermilion socks throughout, with white shirts when a change was needed. Quite where this leaves Jack Helliar's information (see 21 October) is unclear. The photograph shows the Irons in 1896.
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Re: 1901/02 WHU Kit, It Was (Probably).................

Postby Ironworx on Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:12 am

Green Hornet wrote:I'm looking at that 1897 team group photo and, correct me if I'm wrong, but the 'sash' is only noticeably being worn by one player.

Would that be the goal keeper ?

I understand that goalies used to wear the same shirt as outfield players in the early days of football and perhaps this was a method used to identify the keeper.

Perhaps the team didn't wear a sash at all ?


More on this.... Spartacus have the player wearing the sash named as Walter Tranter, and I think that's correct judging from the team photo and a photo just of him - Is he the goalkeeper ?

No - He was a left back.

I didn't know that goalkeepers could handle the ball anywhere in their half of the field in those days ! What with them wearing exactly the same kit as the rest of the team that must have been difficult for the ref.....
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