Montano returns

[Hambrosia Stu]

Let me be clear, I'm not against loaning young players to give them experience , far from it.

But it's usually when their 18,19, get a few games on loan then if their good enough they come back to go into our first team. Montano , Hall etc have done their time on loan, now is the time to put them in the first team squad. Lampard ,Carrick , Rio all went on loan when they we about 18 , played a handful of games and then came back.

Montano is 20 years old , a left winger and has done his time on loan already. My issue is the constant farming of players on loan, that does more to knock confidence out of a young players than sticking with the first team IMO.

Good points made there

Everyone is different I guess, and whereas one player may be ready at 18 (or 16 in the case of a freak like Rooney!), it may take another until his early 20's to reach the same stage. You want to be sure they are ready

But I agree with what you are saying. We need to give them a go in the 1st team at some point. I assume Montano's aim is to break into the West Ham 1st team. So why not give him a sniff of it? Even if he plays a couple of 15 minute cameos, goes on loan for a couple of months, comes back and get another couple of games, goes out on loan again.... that has to be better than just keeping him at arm's length from his ambition?

[Turns to Stone]

I've been guilty of this as well and we need to get away from the Lamps, Rio, Carrick talk.

Montano is probably in the Kyel Reid, Chris Cohen camp at the moment and will be until he breaks into the side.

He's had some good spells this year, and maybe now is the time for him to come into the side, but the fact is that if he was as good as any of the players already mentioned here he would have featured by now. Alternatively, as YWN has mentioned in one of his more sensible posts maybe they think that that from a development point of view, Daggers is the best place for him right now.

We could argue all day about it, but I personally don't think we should be bringing young players into the first-team for reasons such as - 'They can't be any worse than what we already have there'.

They have to be earning their spot and they have to be ready for it. Otherwise it can be damaging for both the player and the team.

[dapablo]

Depab, i think you need to check your facts out. Montano has been at West Ham since he was 11 or 12, he spent a good 6 or 7 years with TC and was the academy Doris Bell player of the year under TC in 2009.

I never said I don't like the manager. He is a functional manager, nothing more, nothing less but doesn't give a stuff about the history or legacy of the clubs he manages....and funnily enough I do...and so should you mate.

Blindly walking off the plank holding Sam's coat tails is just pure ignorance...he is very much there to prove and justify himself and to be shot at imho

Old brain getting my Monties arse about face, sorry.

I love my clubs history but in my opinion we have made it into a millstone about our necks, we have lost all objectivity and now judge by sepia coloured glasses it's like reading faery stories sometimes on here.

For me it's still a team game, the whole team not just selective bits of it, I'm in the minority.

[Absentee Hammer]

He was tweeting yesterday about some meeting,

CMontano11 Tano
In a meeting ... !! The thinking/planning starts from now.....


Followed 2 hours later by

CMontano11 Tano
Had a nice lil convo.. Feeling .. Hope everyone is aving a good day/had a good day.. Chilling with my bro @Reiid !!

So what-ever/where-ever he is going, he seems happy by it.

[Yea Why Not]

Let me be clear, I'm not against loaning young players to give them experience , far from it.

But it's usually when their 18,19, get a few games on loan then if their good enough they come back to go into our first team. Montano , Hall etc have done their time on loan, now is the time to put them in the first team squad. Lampard ,Carrick , Rio all went on loan when they we about 18 , played a handful of games and then came back.
Montano is 20 years old , a left winger and has done his time on loan already. My issue is the constant farming of players on loan, that does more to knock confidence out of a young players than sticking with the first team IMO.

Isn't that what Montano is doing? He's currently made around 10-15 professional starts

He obviously wasn't physical or mentally ready for professional football until he was 19-20. He's now learning his trade and will be back in good time. If he doesn't do the business once he is ready for a place in our squad he'll go back out on loan to try and grow more as a player

Why rush it? That goal Sears scored against Blackburn was the worst thing thats ever happened to him

[Hambrosia Stu]

We could argue all day about it, but I personally don't think we should be bringing young players into the first-team for reasons such as - 'They can't be any worse than what we already have there'.

They have to be earning their spot and they have to be ready for it. Otherwise it can be damaging for both the player and the team.

I totally agree
And likewise it is hardly ideal to bring a player into the side, like we've done with Potts recently, because we have no one else to play there. Although that may well benefit him in the long run, it could have knocked him back if he wasn't ready and played badly

If we had Taylor fit, and competing hard with Collison for that slot, sure, Montano would really have to be doing well to earn his chance

But as things stand, with him coming back to us after this weekend, and limited options in that position, I can't see the harm in just having a bit of a look

[Sloop John B]

Let me be clear, I'm not against loaning young players to give them experience , far from it.

But it's usually when their 18,19, get a few games on loan then if their good enough they come back to go into our first team. Montano , Hall etc have done their time on loan, now is the time to put them in the first team squad. Lampard ,Carrick , Rio all went on loan when they we about 18 , played a handful of games and then came back.

True that, and looking back at the stats I'm suprised on how few games the likes of Rio, Lamps even Noble and Tomkins played on loan (10ish). Don't think Joe Cole went on loan!

I doubt if the decision to loan/play them is entirely down to Allardyce.

[Hambrosia Stu]

Why rush it? That goal Sears' scored against Blackburn was the worst thing thats ever happened to him

I agree, there's no need to rush, and that has been part of the problem in recent years. One half decent game for the first team and suddenly they are considered a regular. That's where we struggle, in terms of developing young players, imo. Those few years, in their early 20's usually, between their first appearance, and when they are ready to be a regular in the side. In a lot of cases we either expect them to play every week, or just move them on if they are unable to do that, when we should perhaps look to keep them around the 1st team squad, and give them sporadic appearances as and when, combined with the odd spell on loan, until they are fully ready

But if Montano's there or thereabouts, it can be counter productive to deny him even a sniff

It's not so much the goal that Sears scored that's the worst thing that's happened to him, but how he's been mis-managed by this club since that goal
I'd get him out on loan, asap, ideally League 1, at a club that would use him as a striker.
I don't know if it was on here I saw it, but someone suggested sending him on loan to Swindon. No idea if they are after a striker, but that could be an excellent move, imo. Far better than watching him fail as a wide midfielder...

[Turns to Stone]

As with most problems at the club, Stu. Our current crop of youngsters are being hampered by having their 3rd or 4th manager at the club during their time with us.

It's bad enough for lads who are earning £20k a week and suddenly get dropped, but these youngsters are playing for their careers. Moth's talked about Spence being in the side last season, and not being fancied by Sam etc. These are huge things. But they're not Allardyce's fault. We need continuity so the young players learn what their boss expects of them and the sort of side they're expected to come into.

[Cuenca 'ammer]

People go on about how these lads progress more at their clubs than at ours, a la Baldock versus Sears. Trouble is they get playing time as they don't have some over paid over the hill lump a la Piq and Carew ahead of them in the pecking order and they either don't get the games they need, or when they do, get played out of position. I'm sure that really helps them in their development. (Or we give someone else from another club which helps them but not necessarily us in the long run. For example, playing Nouble, Sears and Pottsy last year instead of Bridge or Keane ?????

Oh well......

[Turns to Stone]

Hmmmm, let's be honest though Oust. Baldock did well for MK Dons in League 1 last season and this. We picked up Piq on the back of him scoring 13 goals for a relegated team in the top flight.

Potts has been ok this year, but do you really think he should have been playing at left-back instead of Bridge last season at 16 years old? With our fans?

Hindsight's a wonderful thing, but I do seem to be seeing far more positive performances from our young lads on loan this season than previously. Whichever way you cut it, that can't be a bad thing.

[Hockley Hammer]

Having seen Hall last Sunday and again last night I can't see how Montano would play ahead of Hall if a place was available.

in the youth game last night (as last Sunday) Hall played centre or wide right, presumably to be able to cut in and shoot with his left (he scored doing exactly that). This means he could play wide right or left. I believe he has good goalscorers instinct and a decent shot which makes him favourite to play wide right. a lot of people on here have moaned about playing wingers on alternate wings over the last few years, but Hall was very effective.

He looks like he wants the ball, wants to take people on and commit defenders, something we are crying out for. I can't believe that he is not starting to come into Sam's thinking especially as the goals are drying up. I am pretty certain if Hall starts playing he will grab a few goals. However if everybody is fit I think Noble, Nolan and Taylor are starters that means one from Faubert, Collison, Diop, Lansbury, O'Neil and now Hall and Montano. Not an easy selection choice is it? And we might have still had Bentley.

At the D & R friendly pre-season I spoke to somebody at the club and talking to them they said the management were enormously impressed with what they have seen of Hall and Montano. Whatever you think of Sam I believe if we had a reserve side and seven subs we would have seen a lot more of both of them this season. Sam disagrees with the sub ruling from the FA and mentioned the fact it stops giving so many youngsters game experience in the squad.

[Cuenca 'ammer]

TTS

Mostly my comments were rhetorical. However I do think that at times being a youth player for a successful team or for that matter a struggling one is a two edged sword. No one wants to take the risk that a) it won't be successful b) the need for experience to maintain the position and c) a bit of both.

Take this season for example, BFS may criticise the 5 man sub rule but seemingly the clubs hierarchy all voted for it. However, he has played Carew last week when the previous one he said that Carew had not been playing well. He obviously set up a less than sterling team (his choice) but there was the chance to play Nouble up front again, he scored in his last start, a chance for Hall and Montanegro or any one of the other kids to get some quality minutes. We're out of the Carling Cup so considering the position we are in both pressure wise and position wise to get results, these kids ain't going to get much playing time to find out what they can or cannot do.

So we're back to Catch-22. We give other clubs players playing time when we really need that time for our kids. And sorry, but Lansbury hasn't exactly been pulling up trees except early doors.

[The Moth]

I agree, there's no need to rush, and that has been part of the problem in recent years. One half decent game for the first team and suddenly they are considered a regular. That's where we struggle, in terms of developing young players, imo. Those few years, in their early 20's usually, between their first appearance, and when they are ready to be a regular in the side. In a lot of cases we either expect them to play every week, or just move them on if they are unable to do that, when we should perhaps look to keep them around the 1st team squad, and give them sporadic appearances as and when, combined with the odd spell on loan, until they are fully ready

But if Montano's there or thereabouts, it can be counter productive to deny him even a sniff..

Exactly my point HS.

I'm not a fan of players like tomkins ,sears and noble getting their chance and then being relied and expected upon in a **** premier league team. Potts to a certain extent either. Nor am I against players getting experience as kids in the lower leagues for a while.
But Allardyce has got it wrong on both parts IMO.
Potts got his chance .which was great but has then been starting big league and cup games. Thats not good IMO
Sears on the other hand got a chance in preseason as a striker,scored a great goal against Basel or Copenhagen (?) and since then has been largely ignored in favour of terribly out of form players like Carew and Piq. When he gets his chance he played left wing FFS.
Spence showed good promise when he played last season, now he's sat on the bench at bristol learning what exactly?!
Montano has by all accounts shown great ability at development level and has scored goals in the lower leagues. Excellent, nows the time to have him training with top class managers, coaches and players to see how he performs. Given we have no fit left wingers the least we can have is him coming off the bench rather than killing sears/collisons career by sticking him out there?
Stech was fit when Green got injured yet we paid £200k for Alumina to grace us with his presence for 4 weeks ,in the meantime shipped Stech off on loan to Yoavil. No wonder he's touting for other clubs!
As for Hall well he clearly needs to be given a chance to fight for a spot in the team,especially given what he's up against. If we loaned him out again that would top it off for me.

I'm protective of our Academy development as Ive seen whats coming with the EPPP (as well as Financial Fair Play rules), attracting and developing young footballers is going to be massive priority for top clubs. Man City are spending £100+ million on their academy. We should be building our club around what's already been built instead of dismissing it IMO.

[Cuenca 'ammer]

And I love Mancini, having spent around 250 Mill on players saying he's down to "bare bones" and moaned about having to start some 6 Mill Croatian (I think) kid at centre half yesterday...........

[beckton]

Take this season for example, BFS may criticise the 5 man sub rule but seemingly the clubs hierarchy all voted for it.

Are you saying West Ham voted for the 5 sub rule? I'd be very surprised if we did, amazed actually.

[Broomfield Hammer]

Are you saying West Ham voted for the 5 sub rule? I'd be very surprised if we did, amazed actually.

IIRC, the vote was taken before we rejoined the Football League last summer.

[Cuenca 'ammer]

Top people in general Beckton. The owners voted for the rule, majority. What West Ham (or did not ~ see below) I know not.

Thought it was voted on during the summer but I stand to be corrected.

[Dagger 161]

Just thought I would comment on how he has done for us.

I missed the Southend home game (his first) but he scored that day and was pretty impressive by all accounts. He did well at Burton and impressed me that day the way he threw himself into a few tackles and got involved when it went off after a sending off. I don't mean that in a silly way but it showed he was prepared to roll his sleeves up and wasn't afraid of the physical side.

Against Barnet at home he was superb. Scored two goals as good as any I have seen at our ground in last few years, and then laid the last one on. Against Gills and Southend he did ok, and in second half at Southend he was a big threat.

It is a shame we have played so many cup games during his spell in a way as we have not got to see as much of him as I would have liked.

He can tend to drift in and out of games a little as he is playing out wide, but clearly has a lot of ability and a lot of confidence. I guess it's difficult to judge how he would cope at Championship level, but only one way to find out!!

[LeonRivers]

Just thought I would comment on how he has done for us.

I missed the Southend home game (his first) but he scored that day and was pretty impressive by all accounts. He did well at Burton and impressed me that day the way he threw himself into a few tackles and got involved when it went off after a sending off. I don't mean that in a silly way but it showed he was prepared to roll his sleeves up and wasn't afraid of the physical side.

Against Barnet at home he was superb. Scored two goals as good as any I have seen at our ground in last few years, and then laid the last one on. Against Gills and Southend he did ok, and in second half at Southend he was a big threat.

It is a shame we have played so many cup games during his spell in a way as we have not got to see as much of him as I would have liked.

He can tend to drift in and out of games a little as he is playing out wide, but clearly has a lot of ability and a lot of confidence. I guess it's difficult to judge how he would cope at Championship level, but only one way to find out!!

Top man.
Do you have another of ours with you at the moment. Eion Wearen, IIRC?