West Ham Utd 1 Middlesbrough 1 (20/03/12)

An archive of match day threads originally posted in the General Discussion forum.

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Re: West Ham United v Middlesbrough: Match Thread

Postby SammyLeeWasOffside on Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:50 pm

bubbles1966 wrote:The issue with Noble is more "what is his role?" What exactly are we expecting from him on the pitch?

Overall last night, he did alright. He worked hard, threw himself into (and won) several tackles. He only got caught in possession or gave it away 5 or 6 times in total, which is a small proportion of his time in possession

But all this getting on the ball seemed to be in the middle third or on top of our centre backs. None of it led to anything much.

Letting him shoot from set plays when Taylor is on the pitch is....a bit bemusing - though his delivery for Tomkins header was sweet.

I'd much rather see him in possession 30 yards from their goal, than ours. This deep lying stuff is cods.

Agree with most of that bubbs, a large part of his problem though is the players around him. Noble relies heavily on movement from others and last night he got none. His game is very much give and go, give and go then play an incisive pass, too often there was no one to give it to and when there was they mis controlled it.

Whether it was playing at home that was the problem but everyone wanted to duck the responsibility it seemed and just drop a 2 yard sideways pass or wait for someone else to make something happen.

The blend seemed wrong in the middle to me. At blackpool we had 3 young guys who had all grown up playing pass and move and it worked. Since Nolan has come back (not having a go at him he brings other benefits) the middle seems to have stodged up a bit as pass and move isn't his game. Last night we were neither one thing or the other and it is time to decide on a method and go full bore that direction. In the run in I expect Sam will rely on players like Nolan and Taylor in which case it is pointless having ball players around them we may as well go full on lump it and play for set pieces.

If we go up this team is going to need a fortune spent on it or we are coming straight back down though.
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Re: West Ham United v Middlesbrough: Match Thread

Postby hammer2192 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:54 pm

I'm struggling to understand why we bought Maynard and then put him on the wing. Just seems like a pointless buy to me.
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Re: West Ham United v Middlesbrough: Match Thread

Postby bubbles1966 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:59 pm

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: a large part of his problem though is the players around him. Noble relies heavily on movement from others and last night he got none.


Agree.

If we're going to play pass and move - then we have to pick a team to play it

Something like Tomkins-Noble-Collison-Vaz Te - Maynard - Baldock - but there's no way Allardyce will do that :lol:

So if we're going to go route one - then he might as well pick;

Tomkins - Nolan - Faubert - Taylor - Cole - Carew
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Re: West Ham United v Middlesbrough: Match Thread

Postby miles on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:12 pm

bubbles1966 wrote:The issue with Noble is more "what is his role?" What exactly are we expecting from him on the pitch?

Overall last night, he did alright. He worked hard, threw himself into (and won) several tackles. He only got caught in possession or gave it away 5 or 6 times in total, which is a small proportion of his time in possession

But all this getting on the ball seemed to be in the middle third or on top of our centre backs. None of it led to anything much.

Letting him shoot from set plays when Taylor is on the pitch is....a bit bemusing - though his delivery for Tomkins header was sweet.

I'd much rather see him in possession 30 yards from their goal, than ours. This deep lying stuff is cods.


Noble is simply a traditional ball-playing central midfielder. Put him too far forward and he has limited options ahead of him, too far back and he cannot direct his passes to hurt the opposition. Stick an athletic water carrier (Nigel Reo Coker, ahem) next to him to give him the ball, two fast wide players and a couple of decent strikers ahead of him and er, Bob's yer uncle...

Football is a simple game.
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Re: West Ham United v Middlesbrough: Match Thread

Postby the pink palermo on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:14 pm

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: a large part of his problem though is the players around him. Noble relies heavily on movement from others and last night he got none.

bubbles1966 wrote:Agree.

If we're going to play pass and move - then we have to pick a team to play it

Something like Tomkins-Noble-Collison-Vaz Te - Maynard - Baldock - but there's no way Allardyce will do that :lol:

Perhaps he may have to , he knows he's up against it now .Yesterday afternoon it was 23 points out of 30 , this afternoon it's 23 points out of 27 .
bubbles1966 wrote:So if we're going to go route one - then he might as well pick;

Tomkins - Nolan - Faubert - Taylor - Cole - Carew

If he did that , one defeat and a draw would be enough to see him sacked .

I take the point that Noble and Nolan ain't working - and I'm not blaming either of them , but it's clear it isn't working .Sam's issue is fresh in peoples minds eye is the result and perfromance aginst Millwall .

One player excelled that day , the other had an early bath .Fans, fickle as we are, won't credit the skipper with the 6 or 7 absolutely superb positions he took up last night , which had the ball found him , we'd have seen a different outcome .

If Sam goes for Nolan ahead of Noble , and doesn't get instant wins , he's a goner .
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Re: West Ham United v Middlesbrough: Match Thread

Postby James P on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:23 pm

Bubbles

The problem is who is going to give him the ball 30 yards from goal? No one wants the ball in our half. The full backs don't want it from Green. Collins doesn't want it from George, Tomkins doesn't want it from anyone. Nolan is too advanced.

If Noble doesn't go and get it in the space between the halfway line and the penalty area, no one else will and the ball goes long.

I don't know what Sam can do about our players refusal to take the ball in the short term. Long term he may need to replace those who lack the confidence or will to play the ball, but until a few more guys are willing to show and receive and move and create space, we are going to be knocking it long or have Noble getting frustrated on the halfway line.
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Re: West Ham United v Middlesbrough: Match Thread

Postby Aycliffe on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:25 pm

A bit off topic but with a crowd of just over 27,000 last night and the Sir Trevor Brooking Upper looking far from packed how come every time I look on-line to book a ticket that section always appears to be sold out?
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Re: West Ham United v Middlesbrough: Match Thread

Postby Hambrosia Stu on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:26 pm

libero wrote:What a horribly frustrating performance. I've supported Sam since he signed, but it's easy to see why he's got the reputation he's got for being obsessed with big blokes, long balls and safety first tedium as opposed to skill and imagination!

He's convinced himself that it's all down to bad luck, but it's not that. It's bad management, and if he doesn't work that out and change his tactics and team selection, we'll kiss promotion goodbye for this season

:thup:
I couldn't agree more

His starting line up was unbalanced.
I can understand playing Tonks, but if you do that you need to balance the attacking part of the side. Maynard on the right was an awful choice, and playing Noble & Nolan makes no sense at home if you go with a DM. I'd have been happy for Tonks to play that role if we had 2 strikers (a pair of strikers that is, not one treading water on the flank), which would have meant one of Nolan or Noble on the bench

His substitutions were baffling. I though Collison was a massive improvement on Maynard, but that wasn't difficult
Bringing Carew on, whilst removing 2 far more mobile strikers was a very strange decision.

Bringing Balders on, at the same tiem as removing the player most likely to supply him with what he needs to thrive was equally strange

I too have been giving Sam the benefit, biting my tongue about some of tactics and choices. But last night he got it massively wrong. The balance was all arse about face, and we didn't play to our strengths in any way

Boro are no great shakes (both times I've seen them I've been surprised that they are so high in the table), yet we made it so much easier for them than it ever should have been
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Re: West Ham United v Middlesbrough: Match Thread

Postby Hambrosia Stu on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:29 pm

miles wrote:Noble is simply a traditional ball-playing central midfielder. Put him too far forward and he has limited options ahead of him, too far back and he cannot direct his passes to hurt the opposition. Stick an athletic water carrier (Nigel Reo Coker, ahem) next to him to give him the ball, two fast wide players and a couple of decent strikers ahead of him and er, Bob's yer uncle...

Football is a simple game.

:thup:
Spot on
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Re: West Ham United v Middlesbrough: Match Thread

Postby BMLGirl on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:32 pm

Just seen Sam's Sky interview. Firstly, does he like Baldock coz he's forever digging him out? Perhaps if the ball had been played to his feed rather than his head (he's not very tall afterall) he would have a better chance of scoring, perhaps if Sam played him for more than 5-10 mins here and there but actually gave him a run in the team, he'd score. Never mentions other players misses/poor performances. Not good man-management, imho.

Thought he was shockingly rude to the interviewer and very arrogant as well. Don't like the man at all.
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Re: West Ham United v Middlesbrough: Match Thread

Postby freddies shears on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:36 pm

Noble is having his best season far bar. Is it because he is in his right league ? It is great to see him chase everything and give his all. That is the least i expect from any of our team. But what i fail to understand is why he is continuely picked to take free kicks on the edge of our box.? Hitsallburger offered an alternative and if he stayed i am sure he would of perfected it. But once he left it was back to nobes. For crying out loud dont we practice this in training. And after 4/5 seasons of him never hitting the target dont that send signals to our managers (NO) it dont. Every game we are presented with this opportunity to score and i cant honestly remember ( Bar Tevez) anyone netting from a set piece. I think that israel guy once scored from a corner. 10 points to who can remember who it was. So please please train someone to at least hit the target from a free kick
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Re: West Ham United v Middlesbrough: Match Thread

Postby DanielHammer on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:39 pm

We had our best defender playing centre mid. We had our best centre mid playing out on the right. We had possibly our best creative option in Morrison on the bench for the entire game, granted i have not seen him but everyone who has talks about how good he is, all of the man united fans i know cant belive his not playing.

He should have started Collins on the bench, Tomkins centre back,Noble in the middle with Morrison/Landsbury/Collison out on the right.

He bangs on about respecting the point to the point where all we get is the point. The way he set up last night was tailored to get a draw, to defend and nothing more.
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Re: West Ham United v Middlesbrough: Match Thread

Postby DannyboyDJL on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:42 pm

Last night I jumped firmly into the anti Allardyce brigade. I packed in going to games a couple of years ago, so haven't seen that much of us this season, but never miss a game whether on the radio or streamed/TV. Last night was the 1st time i've thought, I'm not even going to bother watching for free next week. He's done a great job of making us solid and not losing games, but nobody wants to watch it. I certainly won't be rushing to watch for free, feel bad for you guys paying for this ****.
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Re: West Ham United v Middlesbrough: Match Thread

Postby warp on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:45 pm

less than three minutes after we scored, both our forwards off, replaced by a light post and a central midfielder played as a side mid.
genius, isn't it?
is there a better way to tell the opponents "come and get us"?

another thing, tomkins as a midfielder. i'm ok with that, but if he plays that role, he should be the one carrying the ball from the defence, not noble. when i see noble near our box and tomkins past midfield i always feel like something's wrong. might be just me tho...
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Re: West Ham United v Middlesbrough: Match Thread

Postby m-h on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:48 pm

miami-hammer wrote:Doubt we'll go 4-5-1, more likely the 4-1-4-1 or 4-2-3-1.

Then again if we score in the first minute, we'll definitely go into our 4-5-1 tortoise shell for the rest of the match, occasionally peering outside to see what the score is. :lol:


Well it wasn't quite the first minute..........
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Re: West Ham United v Middlesbrough: Match Thread

Postby chalks on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:51 pm

Aycliffe wrote:A bit off topic but with a crowd of just over 27,000 last night and the Sir Trevor Brooking Upper looking far from packed how come every time I look on-line to book a ticket that section always appears to be sold out?



season ticket holders taking a night off
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Re: West Ham United v Middlesbrough: Match Thread

Postby taffhammer on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:53 pm

It's like they have milked this formation for all they can and don't know how to take it on to the next level. It's not that 4 5 1 is a problem as a formation it's just that we are putting square pegs in round holes to do it.
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Re: West Ham United v Middlesbrough: Match Thread

Postby chalks on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:54 pm

on a seperate note, did anyone hear Jeremy Nicholas give a mention to big chalks at half time? Off to war again at the end of the week

We didnt send him off overly happy, and his wistful look round the stadium as we were leaving wasnt the nicest of moments
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Re: West Ham United v Middlesbrough: Match Thread

Postby Morocco Mole on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:58 pm

No one can tell me this is worse than Pardew's first year..... :lol:
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Re: West Ham United v Middlesbrough: Match Thread

Postby Hambrosia Stu on Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:58 pm

warp wrote:less than three minutes after we scored, both our forwards off, replaced by a light post and a central midfielder played as a side mid.
genius, isn't it?
is there a better way to tell the opponents "come and get us"?

I actually thought Collison improved us on the right, but I agree that the Carew on, and 2 strikers off sent a clear message.
And one that Mowbray, who is hardly the world's greatest tactician, instantly recognised. He couldn't get his subs on quick enough, and surprise surprise, the changes he made turned the game in their favour

warp wrote:another thing, tomkins as a midfielder. i'm ok with that, but if he plays that role, he should be the one carrying the ball from the defence, not noble. when i see noble near our box and tomkins past midfield i always feel like something's wrong. might be just me tho...

Agreed
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