West Ham Utd 1-1 Liverpool (04/02/19)

An archive of match day threads originally posted in the General Discussion forum.

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Estuary
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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Liverpool: Match thread

Post by Estuary » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:17 pm

bubbles1966 wrote:I think TOMOS' point is that there is an underlying media narrative attached to certain clubs - West Ham are one of them - that means the media are much more likely to latch onto it.

If it was solely about abusive behaviour and words, they wouldn't know where to start with football crowds the length and breadth of the country.
Spot on, West Ham are fair game as we have a very high profile Tory deputy chair, a "free" stadium and a section of our own support who want to make political gain from any issues by pushing it into left wing friendly MMS.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Liverpool: Match thread

Post by The Old Man of Storr » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:19 pm

bubbles1966 wrote:
The crowd down in that corner was taking the piss out of Salah singing, "He's gonna dive in a minute".

As for the phone - the tourists all sit there with them on constantly.
Ok , thanks , mate - I've never owned a mobile phone or a smartphone , I certainly wouldn't take one to film a football match when I could see it with my own eyes .

I guess what I'm really upset about is how this tarnishes the whole club after our best result in weeks .

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Liverpool: Match thread

Post by S-H » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:22 pm

The Old Man of Storr wrote:


The point I'm trying to make in my own little hamfisted manner is -

Would this have made the news had it been a West Ham player abused by a Liverpool fan - it just seems too much of a coincidence that this makes the news after we've gone and deprived the League Leaders of 3 points with no mention that Liverpool cheated their way to a draw -
It's one stupid idiot amongst 60,000 well behaved fans , yet our club is tarnished in front of the whole nation ., I guess that's the bit I'm upset by .
.
Tomos,

I honestly think it would have, the power of social media means that clubs and the authorities have to be seen taking action, the whole Kick It Out campaign would be pointless otherwise.

Racism is racism, no matter where it takes place or who films it. it can never subjective.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Liverpool: Match thread

Post by The Old Man of Storr » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:22 pm

davids cross wrote:
We have to be honest about it. Even if it's a small group or individuals. They don't represent me as a West Ham supporter.

Be the loudest, be the best, be the most loyal, be the funniest, give out the stick , be hostile.......football should not be sanitized. It would be terrible if it was. It wouldn't be worth going to.

But there are lines, people are gonna have to learn not to cross. Most people get that now........some still don't.
Well said , DC . :thup:

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Liverpool: Match thread

Post by Faithless » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:24 pm

All from the BBC (only football, plenty on other sports)

21/12/18: Anthony Gerrard: Oldham Athletic say FA punishment for 'racist joke' is 'lenient'
31/12/18: Aboubakar Kamara: Fulham to take action over racist abuse online
08/01/19: North Wales Police investigating alleged racism during Wrexham match
26/01/19: Lincoln City assistant groundsman sacked over racist tweets
14/01/19: Son Heung-min: Tottenham investigate racism claim against South Korea winger
27/01/19: Racist chanting at Millwall v Everton investigated by FA
06/02/19: Mohamed Salah: West Ham investigate racist abuse of Liverpool striker
07/02/19: Brighton boss Chris Hughton says up to FA to take action over alleged Gaetan Bong chant

TOMoS I think it's safe to say it's not a West Ham only witch-hunt. I think sometimes we all get a little caught up when it's one of our own that's caused agro but the truth is if an abusive incident is brought to the media's attention it doesn't matter if it's a West Ham fan or Lincoln City's assistant groundsman it's being reported. In this case it just happens to be Mo "PFA Player of the Year" Salah and is therefore more likely to draw greater coverage.
Coops wrote:But the headlines say it was Wet Ham fans.
I am sorry but I am not happy to be labelled racist because of one idiot who happens to follow the same team as me. These things come out and it makes us all look bad, but the vast majority have far higher standards than the culprit.
I haven't read all the articles on this so if others are implying fans then fair enough but the BBC one says "a fan" recorded by another fan and doesn't imply fans.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Liverpool: Match thread

Post by The Old Man of Storr » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:24 pm

S-H wrote:
Tomos,

I honestly think it would have, the power of social media means that clubs and the authorities have to be seen taking action, the whole Kick It Out campaign would be pointless otherwise.

Racism is racism, no matter where it takes place or who films it. it can never subjective.
Yeah , you're probably right , I guess I was upset at seeing our club being tarnished by this one idiot . :thup:

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Liverpool: Match thread

Post by S-H » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:30 pm

I get that Tomos and I understand where you're coming from. Unfortunately there are idiots at every club and in every walk of life, Chelsea and Spurs are recent football examples, neither club was tarnished, as I think people in general are intelligent enough to see that it is very much a small minority, it's a cultural thing not a football club thing.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Liverpool: Match thread

Post by The Old Man of Storr » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:39 pm

S-H wrote:I get that Tomos and I understand where you're coming from. Unfortunately there are idiots at every club and in every walk of life, Chelsea and Spurs are recent football examples, neither club was tarnished, as I think people in general are intelligent enough to see that it is very much a small minority, it's a cultural thing not a football club thing.
:thup:

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Liverpool: Match thread

Post by Tenbury » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:42 pm

Ban the bloke for keeps, who needs pricks like that.Let's get real though, any crowd of 60,000 anywhere is going to go have a smattering of racists, as well as child abusers, wife beaters etc ,etc.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Liverpool: Match thread

Post by gaptooth » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:49 pm

Tenbury wrote:Ban the bloke for keeps, who needs pricks like that.Let's get real though, any crowd of 60,000 anywhere is going to go have a smattering of racists, as well as child abusers, wife beaters etc ,etc.
Yes it will - they're all still wrong 'uns though aren't they?

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Liverpool: Match thread

Post by vietnammer » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:55 pm

Tenbury wrote:Ban the bloke for keeps, who needs pricks like that.Let's get real though, any crowd of 60,000 anywhere is going to go have a smattering of racists, as well as child abusers, wife beaters etc ,etc.
I'm certain there was another thread on this. Don't think your comparison with child abusers and domestic violence is apppropriate. The 'racism' is a matter of society but the others border on to individual traits. These can be affected by legislation and promotion of issues, but you can get a bit too general in condemning people.

****ing good result though weren't it!

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Liverpool: Match thread

Post by Pob! » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:59 pm

davids cross wrote:There is also a narrative among quite a few West Ham fans to downplay anything we do wrong.

I see it on here sometimes. Look for the excuse when it's West Ham, yet condemn it when it's someone else.

But there are lines, people are gonna have to learn not to cross. Most people get that now........some still don't.
I hate it when people are reasonable because it means that I can't dig them out for it!

:thup:

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Liverpool: Match thread

Post by Samba » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:38 pm

Samba wrote:I am not condoning what the guy shouted but it was not racist. A religion is not a race.
richneal wrote:It's also not racist to call most of the people posting on this site uneducated pr**** from Essex.
Correct, it wouldn't be racist but it would be ignorant & offensive.
Exactly the same as the idiot shouting at Mo Salah.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Liverpool: Match thread

Post by Samba » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:51 pm

Samba wrote:If he'd sat with his fellow Liverpool fans instead of being in with the home fans, he wouldn't have heard it. Liverpool fans have NEVER been heard shouting offensive things, but then he wouldn't know that, having probably NEVER sat with Liverpool fans, at a game.
James P wrote:“If he hadn’t have been there he wouldn’t have heard it” :lol:
That’s some top drawer victim blaming
It was a little bit of irony, James.
You would hope that Liverpool fans would never shout abuse at a Muslim player but then again!

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Liverpool: Match thread

Post by Turns to Stone » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:57 pm

I did just write a long post about religion and racism. But let's be honest, It's not going to change anyone's mind either way.

West Ham or no West Ham though. The bloke shouldn't have said it and anyone who thinks that it should be ok to shout it out at a football ground (or anywhere for that matter) is, in my opinion, living in the wrong era.

We did play bloody well though.

Felipe Anderson was mustard.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Liverpool: Match thread

Post by YorksHammer » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:58 pm

Samba wrote:I am not condoning what the guy shouted but it was not racist. A religion is not a race.
I don't want to get into it in too much depth, but it IS racism - it's cultural racism.

It's why you're more likely to hear the kind of abuse that Salah got than you are likely to hear someone like Aled Jones get the same stuff for being a Christian - there's an in built belief, fostered over a number of years, that certain cultures are superior to others, and of course, like how white was perceived as superior to black (a train of thought that certainly still exists in some places and people), Christianity, as the prevalent religion in Western, affluent cultures, is seen as superior to Islam.

Shame that this seems to be getting more discussion, even amongst our own fans, than how quality we were on Monday.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Liverpool: Match thread

Post by Belchio » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:06 pm

West hams reputation will recover.

Most people have forgotten the Tony Henry "Mayhem" comments even from last year. I hope this is dealt with robustly and then the attention returns back to our performances on the pitch rather than what a few idiots in the crowd are doing.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Liverpool: Match thread

Post by Vic_Watson » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:27 pm

Forget the "racism"/Islamophobe bit, the idiot should just be banned just for using the C-word in a public place when there were no doubt kids all around. ASBO.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Liverpool: Match thread

Post by Pob! » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:42 pm

YorksHammer wrote:
I don't want to get into it in too much depth, but it IS racism - it's cultural racism.
.
It is not cultural racism, it's Islamophobia ..

Cultural Racism is based on someone's cultural heritage hence Ethnic cleansing between different tribes (Hutu and Tutsi) is one example.
Both the same religion from the same part of the world yet a hate for each other due to culture and history and a difference in perceived wealth.

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Liverpool: Match thread

Post by Samba » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:44 pm

Samba wrote:I am not condoning what the guy shouted but it was not racist. A religion is not a race.
YorksHammer wrote:
I don't want to get into it in too much depth, but it IS racism - it's cultural racism.
It's why you're more likely to hear the kind of abuse that Salah got than you are likely to hear someone like Aled Jones get the same stuff for being a Christian - there's an in built belief, fostered over a number of years, that certain cultures are superior to others, and of course, like how white was perceived as superior to black (a train of thought that certainly still exists in some places and people), Christianity, as the prevalent religion in Western, affluent cultures, is seen as superior to Islam.
Shame that this seems to be getting more discussion, even amongst our own fans, than how quality we were on Monday.
:thup:
Yes, I can see why it could be called cultural racism although perhaps it's closer to call it cultural abuse.
It doesn't just have to be an 'ism' to be, wrong to do & offensive.
To balance your other point though, some Muslims definitely see Islam as superior to every other religion, not that I'm suggesting that you don't know that.
Let's hope the bloke concerned has a meaningful conversation that helps him to evolve a bit.
Perhaps all of this discussion has been useful.

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