Manuel Pellegrini: West Ham United’s 17th manager

[Turns to Stone]

Declan Rice is not the DM we need in our formation, IMHO
If we are going to play one nominal DM and then a load of midgets, we need someone more 'basic' than Rice. Someone who is not necessarily very skilful or a great passer, but who will just sit in front of the back four, make tackles, win headers and track runners

I think playing a proper DM who does the role above, and then giving Rice more freedom to get up and down the park a bit would be a very good option

At the moment the player we have who can do that [and who has done it all his career] is Sanchez, so I am perfectly happy to play him in front of the back four, then Rice, and then four others, with the long-term plan to upgrade that position

Agree with this. It has to be at least two from Rice, Noble and Sanchez every week in my opinion otherwise the balance is just not right.

[Crouchend_Hammer]

Agree with this. It has to be at least two from Rice, Noble and Sanchez every week in my opinion otherwise the balance is just not right.

i don't think Rice and Noble as a two is the answer either. Those two need one more in there.
The best way we can make two work is Sanchez and Rice IMHO, and of course, this has yet to be evidenced in any way so is heavily reliant on Sanchez being better than he has been so far.
Far from ideal, but may be the best option

[Turns to Stone]

i don't think Rice and Noble as a two is the answer either. Those two need one more in there.
The best way we can make two work is Sanchez and Rice IMHO, and of course, this has yet to be evidenced in any way so is heavily reliant on Sanchez being better than he has been so far.
Far from ideal, but may be the best option

I think in home games against sides when we are going to have the lion-share of possession, I actually wouldn't mind seeing those two plus one of Lanzini, Wilshere or Fornals.

The problem is that there is no way you're going to get 38 games out of Sanchez, nevermind Rice.

We're just one short in there.

[Colours never run]

Declan Rice is not the DM we need in our formation, IMHO
If we are going to play one nominal DM and then a load of midgets, we need someone more 'basic' than Rice. Someone who is not necessarily very skilful or a great passer, but who will just sit in front of the back four, make tackles, win headers and track runners

That seems an awfully good waste of a position in a starting line up, especially when competition is tough enough for a place in the team. It's a job that can't also be done by the likes of say a Noble, who also has more to his game than just doing the mere dogs body basics. I wouldn't dream of clogging up a starting place alongside Rice with the likes of Sanchez. And a 33/34yo Sanchez this season with very limited ability, who suffered a terrible injury last season at that.

[Crouchend_Hammer]

I think in home games against sides when we are going to have the lion-share of possession, I actually wouldn't mind seeing those two plus one of Lanzini, Wilshere or Fornals.

The problem is that there is no way you're going to get 38 games out of Sanchez, nevermind Rice.

We're just one short in there.

Yep, I agree with all that
I am not advocating Rice and Sanchez for all games. BUt certainly the trickier ones. I think it will benefit Rice long term as well, as I see him as a more all-round midfielder anyway

[YorksHammer]

I'm tempted to whisper it but - do we overrate Rice, as a fanbase?

We've spent the summer saying 'oh, we need to put the right player next to Rice in midfield'. Now here people are saying that the right player to go next to Rice is Sanchez - ostensibly his back up in his role.

Why do people feel like we need a second pure defensive midfielder to partner Rice?

There are teams the world over that play this 4-1-4-1/4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 (to be the three are quite interchangeable) style formation that Pellegrini has us in every weekend with one defensive midfielder. And it's not just Man City and Liverpool in the Premier League - it's Leicester, Villa, Norwich, Everton, Chelsea, Spurs. It's use is widespread, and they all have one fundamentally defensive midfielder.

Maybe if we're struggling to break up play, it's because Rice isn't good enough as a defensive midfielder when it comes to reading the game and positioning himself appropriately to provide cover for those around him?

[Crouchend_Hammer]

Maybe if we're struggling to break up play, it's because Rice isn't good enough as a defensive midfielder when it comes to reading the game and positioning himself appropriately to provide cover for those around him?

I would agree with that to a certain extent. He isn't a good enough purely defensive midfielder to do the job with the midfield we have in front of him
Could he do the job at Man City, yes for sure because Silva x 2, Gundogan, De Bruyne, Sterling etc offer a lot more defensively than our midfielders

[Crouchend_Hammer]

There are teams the world over that play this 4-1-4-1/4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 (to be the three are quite interchangeable) style formation that Pellegrini has us in every weekend with one defensive midfielder. And it's not just Man City and Liverpool in the Premier League - it's Leicester, Villa, Norwich, Everton, Chelsea, Spurs. It's use is widespread, and they all have one fundamentally defensive midfielder.

Maybe if we're struggling to break up play, it's because Rice isn't good enough as a defensive midfielder when it comes to reading the game and positioning himself appropriately to provide cover for those around him?

tbf though, none of these teams listed play a DM with almost no other defensive orientated or physically powerful players alongside/ in front of him

SPurs play Winks alongside Sissoko and the new bloke, both of whom are very powerful and physical. Completely different scenario
Ndidi has Tielemans alongside him who is a big lad [Edit: and Choudary now]
Everton played Gomes alongside Gueye [and the play Schneiderlin now and again]
CHelsea have Kante, Kovacevic and Jorginho

[Patito]

I
There are teams the world over that play this 4-1-4-1/4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 (to be the three are quite interchangeable) style formation that Pellegrini has us in every weekend with one defensive midfielder. And it's not just Man City and Liverpool in the Premier League - it's Leicester, Villa, Norwich, Everton, Chelsea, Spurs. It's use is widespread, and they all have one fundamentally defensive midfielder.

Not entirely true, Yorks.

Leicester play Ndidi and Choudhury together at the minute, both defensive midfielders.
Villa are struggling in this league and have lost both games.
Norwich - 1st match of the season they played 2 out-and-out DM's - Trybull and Tettey. Next game they went with Leitner.
Everton played 2 defensive midfielders for years. At the minute it's Gbamin + Gomes so it depends whether you'd class Gomes as a defensive midfielder. He's certainly not an attacking midfielder.
Chelsea - First game they got walloped 4-0, next game they were lucky to escape with a draw, Kante + Jorginho started too.
Spurs - Good example. You could argue that with Ndombele, Winks and Sissoko in there they're not playing with any out-and-out defensive midfielders.

[hammer1975]

Don’t think it’s Rice that Pellegrini is over-rating. It’s Wilshere.

[Albie Beck]

fair enough Albie

but let's look at the overall picture..

at the very end of the window we spent around 10-12M on a 3rd choice striker when Pellers himself said Antonio was good enough to play 3rd string and a 5th choice CB (4th if we discount Reid)

we all have to assume that Pellegrini felt he did NOT choose to put a bid in for a CM/DM/BBM - an area that to be fair, (I haven't taken a poll though) a fair load of folks on here think we need/needed.

now, we are not all scouts, managers or DoF but..........I would suggest that there is a wealth of knowledge on here one way or another.

and Pellers did say Obiang would be replaced. that position wasn't. so we should do a Sherlock Holmes then...…

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

'oust - you're assuming a lot there:
1. That Pellers CHOSE anything of the sort (putting a bid in for another midfielder). He may well have been left no option.
2. - including replacing Obiang.
3. When Pellers said what he did about Antonio, how do you know who his target audience was? Maybe it was aimed at the PD?

There may be some footballing knowledge on here, sure - but (and this isn't aimed at you mate) there's sometimes a lack of application of common, including some tactical scepticism based on historic evidence!

[Crouchend_Hammer]

Spurs - Good example. You could argue that with Ndombele, Winks and Sissoko in there they're not playing with any out-and-out defensive midfielders.

They are certainly a lot more comfortable with defensive work and far more physical than any combination of Noble/ Wilshire/ Lanzini/ SNodgrass though

Sissoko is exactly what we need IMHO

[Patito]

They are certainly a lot more comfortable with defensive work and far more physical than any combination of Noble/ Wilshire/ Lanzini/ SNodgrass though

Sissoko is exactly what we need IMHO

For sure. But none of them are out-and-out defensive mids. We could do with finding our own Ndombele/Sissoko.

[YorksHammer]

Not entirely true, Yorks.

Leicester play Ndidi and Choudhury together at the minute, both defensive midfielders.
Villa are struggling in this league and have lost both games.
Norwich - 1st match of the season they played 2 out-and-out DM's - Trybull and Tettey. Next game they went with Leitner.
Everton played 2 defensive midfielders for years. At the minute it's Gbamin + Gomes so it depends whether you'd class Gomes as a defensive midfielder. He's certainly not an attacking midfielder.
Chelsea - First game they got walloped 4-0, next game they were lucky to escape with a draw, Kante + Jorginho started too.
Spurs - Good example. You could argue that with Ndombele, Winks and Sissoko in there they're not playing with any out-and-out defensive midfielders.

Hmm, curious one. For example, I would have said that last weekend Ndidi was much deeper than Choudhury and Tielemans, for example - but that's very much based on highlights.

I don't know, I just feel like there needs to be consideration that it could be an issue that Rice isn't as good, and shouldn't be as nailed on a starter, as we perhaps think for.

I would also say that we're looking for some kind of athletic/physical midfielder to play alongside him - but I'm not sure that a) that's what Pellegrini wants (and whether we think he's right or wrong for that is the start of the argument, of course, but ultimately he's building the team he wants) and b) that's actually what we need. I've long thought that rather than pure pace/power, what we are really lacking in the midfield two is speed of thought to look forward. It's why I keep saying we should put Lanzini in the two, because I think he has that ability in spades - I would actually say our best three right now might be Rice alongside Lanzini with Fornals central in front.

Lanzini's not a slouch when it comes to tackling and intercepting, either - I think he averages something like 10 duels a game since signing with us. He's a souped up Wilshere, in my book, and the way his importance to our performance grew when put in that position at the weekend reinforced that to me. Plus, his ball retention, running with the ball, and passing are all excellent, so it's not like he wouldn't move forward and be a bit more 'box-to-box'.

The last thing I want to see thrown into that midfield is someone who will charge around after the ball for 90 minutes occasionally winning it but then subsequently not using it well.

[Supreme]

It's quite funny how quick people on here are to poo poo the Rice / Wilshere CM partnership after the grand total of 2 games, one against the best team in the land.

Wilshere was out best player in pre-season by far - he was our best player against City for quite a while in that match as well.

[Patito]

I agree with most of that, Yorks, so I won't quote it all, just this bit...

I've long thought that rather than pure pace/power, what we are really lacking in the midfield two is speed of thought to look forward.

This is what Fornals is all about. Pellegrini is obviously introducing him slowly but he is so sharp and always tries to play the ball forward. From the man himself:

But this is how I understand football, to always be active, to look for the ball, to break the lines, to play forward, so that my teammates see me unmarked; and later on in defence I try to make it as difficult as possible for my opponents

[Colours never run]

Not me, I'm still keen to see how it develops over time. There's been far too much nonsense said about Wilshere recently.

[Lil Joe 17]

I think our focus on a pacey energetic defensive midfield has really come through the emergence of Kante, but what we need to realise is that anybody we bring in to fill that role will have gaps and have plenty of flaws... otherwise they would be as good as Kante and considered the same grade as him.

[Supreme]

Not me, I'm still keen to see how it develops over time. There's been far too much nonsense said about Wilshere recently.

Agreed. We are really are a ****y fan base at times. Its been 2 games FFS

[Turns to Stone]

It's quite funny how quick people on here are to poo poo the Rice / Wilshere CM partnership after the grand total of 2 games, one against the best team in the land.

Wilshere was out best player in pre-season by far - he was our best player against City for quite a while in that match as well.

I don't think it's about poo pooing it, the concern I have is that because we sold Obiang in the summer and didn't replace him, that if the Wilshere/Rice partnership doesn't work, or if Wilshere gets injured again (which let's be honest will probably happen), we don't have many options to change it.

Last season, I was regularly disappointed that our only option of the bench to change things in the centre of midfield was Snodgrass. I hoped that we would address that in the summer. Instead we actually went backwards in that area losing Obiang. We are incredibly reliant on a 19 year-old, a 32 year-old and two players who missed the entirety of last season. I find it worrying and it worries me that Pellegrini either chose not to address it in the summer or wasn't allowed to address it by our owners.