Manuel Pellegrini West Ham United’s 17th manager

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hammer1975
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Re: Manuel Pellegrini West Ham United’s 17th manager

Post by hammer1975 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:44 pm

OohAahButler wrote:I agree with a lot of what you said, 1975, but I keep seeing this and I just don't buy it. Sanchez is on a hefty wedge, in the last year of his contract, nearing retirement and returning from long-term injury. And not exactly a big name that everyone would want.

I can't see how there was ever any expectation of moving him on - who on earth would take him off our hands in that situation, unless it was on loan with us paying the lions share of his wages?

It seems that Pellegrini sees something in him that most of us on here don't.
It may be optimistic thinking on my part. Agree we wouldn’t have got any money (and may have had to subsidise wages) if there was any chance of him going at all.

I see that Pellegrini has said that Sanchez and Yarmolenko will be important players this year. That either means he does rate Sanchez or is a real slap in the face for Yarmolenko! :wink:

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Re: Manuel Pellegrini West Ham United’s 17th manager

Post by Diogenes » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:06 pm

Albie Beck wrote:How do you know he planned to keep Ogbonna? Or that Fornals was "instead of" not "in addition to" but the budget didn't materialise?

It's the owners 100%. This club should have the funds available from its income. They are just not releasing it.
If you read my post again Albie I was talking about Pellegrini prioritising, whatever the budget was, and it is self evident that he chose 'attacking' options rather than defensive ones. Fornals is great but given the choice would you rather him or a DCM? As for Ogbonna, I have no idea what Pellegrini 'planned' but we now have several CHs, plus potentially Rice and I sure if Pellegrina had wanted to shift Ogbonna to raise funds he would have been allowed to.

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Re: Manuel Pellegrini West Ham United’s 17th manager

Post by Roby » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:23 pm

hammer1975 wrote:I see that Pellegrini has said that Sanchez and Yarmolenko will be important players this year. That either means he does rate Sanchez or is a real slap in the face for Yarmolenko! :wink:
They are both his signings and neither have been a success due to injuries.

Pretty sure they’ll both be in the starting line up next week versus Newport and should do well.

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Re: Manuel Pellegrini West Ham United’s 17th manager

Post by Turns to Stone » Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:58 pm

We still have a problem with Reid taking up big wages and not on the pitch. Ogbonna is another fairly big earning reserve as is Sanchez.

We won't get rid of Reid until his contract expires, as I'm sure is the case with Sanchez.

Fornals was a moneyball signing in my opinion. He'll only improve and become more valuable in the same way that Diop has and we won't lose money on him, but in my opinion, you can only make those sorts of signings when you had a first-team that's good enough.

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Re: Manuel Pellegrini West Ham United’s 17th manager

Post by goa127 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:52 pm

Turns to Stone wrote:We still have a problem with Reid taking up big wages and not on the pitch. Ogbonna is another fairly big earning reserve as is Sanchez.

We won't get rid of Reid until his contract expires, as I'm sure is the case with Sanchez.

Fornals was a moneyball signing in my opinion. He'll only improve and become more valuable in the same way that Diop has and we won't lose money on him, but in my opinion, you can only make those sorts of signings when you had a first-team that's good enough.
I think fornals was signed to cover for an injury-prone lanzini and replace him if he rejected a new contract. Too often in the past a good run has been interrupted by an injury to our flair players. For the first time in years we have alternatives.

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Re: Manuel Pellegrini West Ham United’s 17th manager

Post by Albie Beck » Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:07 pm

Diogenes wrote:If you read my post again Albie I was talking about Pellegrini prioritising, whatever the budget was, and it is self evident that he chose 'attacking' options rather than defensive ones. Fornals is great but given the choice would you rather him or a DCM?
No I read your post mate. I was pointing out the timing: Fornals was bought at the beginning of the window. At that point there were probably a number of factors in play. You are asserting that it was either/or and Pellers may have made the wrong choice. I'm saying that he may have planned to get a more defensive option in midfield too, but by the end of the window looks like the budget had been pulled. Wouldn't be the first time.
Diogenes wrote:As for Ogbonna, I have no idea what Pellegrini 'planned' but we now have several CHs, plus potentially Rice and I sure if Pellegrina had wanted to shift Ogbonna to raise funds he would have been allowed to.
It's not really whether he was allowed to shift Ogbonna, it's whether he could, and if that was a pre-requisite to him being able to spend the proceeds.

It all comes back to short arms and low pockets.

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Re: Manuel Pellegrini West Ham United’s 17th manager

Post by Smonnie » Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:14 pm

Albie Beck wrote: It's not really whether he was allowed to shift Ogbonna, it's whether he could, and if that was a pre-requisite to him being able to spend the proceeds.

It all comes back to short arms and low pockets.
And being greedy, deceitful, slimy little *****.

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Re: Manuel Pellegrini West Ham United’s 17th manager

Post by Cuenca 'ammer » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:01 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... e-football" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

from another post in the Wilshere thread

It raises concerns about Pellegrini’s approach. He wants to attack, yet questions are being asked about why he spent a significant chunk of his summer budget on Pablo Fornals, another attacking midfielder, when West Ham were crying out for more strength in the middle. They needed another ball-winner to take some of the load off Rice after selling Pedro Obiang.

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Re: Manuel Pellegrini West Ham United’s 17th manager

Post by Albie Beck » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:44 pm

Obiang was a midfield ball-winner? A decent all-rounder, but this is stretching it...

And as I said, Fornals was signed early in the window so who knows what Pellers had intended to do but was ultimately stopped by lack of funds and being unable to move particular players on until too late in the window, or not at all.

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Re: Manuel Pellegrini West Ham United’s 17th manager

Post by Cuenca 'ammer » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:58 pm

fair enough Albie

but let's look at the overall picture..

at the very end of the window we spent around 10-12M on a 3rd choice striker when Pellers himself said Antonio was good enough to play 3rd string and a 5th choice CB (4th if we discount Reid)

we all have to assume that Pellegrini felt he did NOT choose to put a bid in for a CM/DM/BBM - an area that to be fair, (I haven't taken a poll though) a fair load of folks on here think we need/needed.

now, we are not all scouts, managers or DoF but..........I would suggest that there is a wealth of knowledge on here one way or another.

and Pellers did say Obiang would be replaced. that position wasn't. so we should do a Sherlock Holmes then......

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

:D

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Re: Manuel Pellegrini West Ham United’s 17th manager

Post by Tackler » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:53 pm

The best we can hope for with these full backs and that gap in centre mid this season is 9th, in fact it would be a massive achivement by Pellegrini

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Re: Manuel Pellegrini West Ham United’s 17th manager

Post by Patito » Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:39 am

Cuenc - we were in for Santiago Ascacibar by all accounts, we ran out of time (and probably funds) to get a deal done.

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Re: Manuel Pellegrini West Ham United’s 17th manager

Post by woodford » Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:50 am

Albie Beck wrote:Obiang was a midfield ball-winner? A decent all-rounder, but this is stretching it...

My sentiments exactly.

In theory, he was. In reality he wasn't. He wasn't a flair player so the assumption would be he's in the team to take the role of ball winner maybe. Well i waited for that day but it never seemed to arrive.

It may be that he was brilliant at it and his contribution passed me by as i've normally had a beer prior to the game.

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Re: Manuel Pellegrini West Ham United’s 17th manager

Post by steveyrockstar » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:39 am

Ahhhh, how I wish we could put Dicks and Parker in this side. Would add leadership, tough tackling, balance and a nasty edge to all that talent.

Theoretically, we'd be formidable. In practice, I bet we'd still somehow manage to concede tons...

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Re: Manuel Pellegrini West Ham United’s 17th manager

Post by e17 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:49 am

steveyrockstar wrote:Ahhhh, how I wish we could put Dicks and Parker in this side. Would add leadership, tough tackling, balance and a nasty edge to all that talent.

Theoretically, we'd be formidable. In practice, I bet we'd still somehow manage to concede tons...
:thup: the two players I’d choose too

Jules weren’t half decent at CB or LB

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Re: Manuel Pellegrini West Ham United’s 17th manager

Post by Colours never run » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:54 am

OohAahButler wrote:
It seems that Pellegrini sees something in him that most of us on here don't.

I don't think he necessarily sees something in him, most don't. I think he sees the same things most of us do and his very limited game with occasional costly errors. But what he does see in him, is a player more than willing to play Rice's back up as the squads emergency DM. You'd struggle to get someone a lot better willing to put up with mostly kicking their heels on the bench, as Sanchez accepts to be the case. He's not expected to play game after game alongside him as he knows it'll fall apart at the seems, the hope is Rice remains relatively injury free (touch wood seems to be the case since debut avoiding injuries with youth on his side), so he's used very sparingly. That way he may be of some use as it limits the chances of his error probe ways, but offers some support to the squad should Rice for whatever reason not make it through a game, or just to shore up the team for the last knockings of a game as an extra body in midfield.

Some people have it in their heads he's a player that's going to be starting alongside Rice as 2 Dms, but I just don't see Pellegrini wanting to play that way in central midfield. He wants to play more expansively than that, by partnering our true DM in Rice with another ball playing midfielder who can do a bit in both ends of the pitch ie - Noble, Wilshere, possibly Fornals.

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Re: Manuel Pellegrini West Ham United’s 17th manager

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:02 am

Double post
Last edited by Crouchend_Hammer on Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Manuel Pellegrini West Ham United’s 17th manager

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:02 am

Declan Rice is not the DM we need in our formation, IMHO
If we are going to play one nominal DM and then a load of midgets, we need someone more 'basic' than Rice. Someone who is not necessarily very skilful or a great passer, but who will just sit in front of the back four, make tackles, win headers and track runners

I think playing a proper DM who does the role above, and then giving Rice more freedom to get up and down the park a bit would be a very good option

At the moment the player we have who can do that [and who has done it all his career] is Sanchez, so I am perfectly happy to play him in front of the back four, then Rice, and then four others, with the long-term plan to upgrade that position

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Re: Manuel Pellegrini West Ham United’s 17th manager

Post by Turns to Stone » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:11 am

Colours never run wrote: Some people have it in their heads he's a player that's going to be starting alongside Rice as 2 Dms, but I just don't see Pellegrini wanting to play that way in central midfield. He wants to play more expansively than that, by partnering our true DM in Rice with another ball playing midfielder who can do a bit in both ends of the pitch ie - Noble, Wilshere, possibly Fornals.
I actually agree with everything you're saying CNR, and I agree that this is what Pellegrini wants. And if it was his first season I could understand it, but last season, we actually looked far better and more organised when he played a midfield 3 of any of Rice, Noble, Snodgrass or Obiang. When he only played two (or one perish the thought) of those (usually Noble and Rice) we were invariably overrun and performed badly.

He had two options in my opinion this summer.

1) Improve the defence significantly enough so that you can pick Rice as your lone holding midfielder and you can then pick players like Fornals, Wilshere and Lanzini around him safe in the knowledge that your back 4 is solid enough to cope.

2) Strengthen your midfield to provide support for Rice and to give extra support to a leaky defence who's keeper had to make save after save last year.

He's actually done neither. So it confuses me when I see us starting with a midfield two of Rice and Wilshere and a back four of Fredericks, Diop, Ogbonna/Balbuena Cresswell/Masuaku and him expecting different results.

We were generally poor at the back last season (all season) and we were generally weak in midfield.

Expecting Jack Wilshere to change both those things seems unlikely to me.

Sebastien Haller might do to be fair, by hanging onto the ball more than Arnuatovic did when he had the hump and defending from the front. But it's going to take him time.

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Re: Manuel Pellegrini West Ham United’s 17th manager

Post by Turns to Stone » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:13 am

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:Declan Rice is not the DM we need in our formation, IMHO
If we are going to play one nominal DM and then a load of midgets, we need someone more 'basic' than Rice. Someone who is not necessarily very skilful or a great passer, but who will just sit in front of the back four, make tackles, win headers and track runners

I think playing a proper DM who does the role above, and then giving Rice more freedom to get up and down the park a bit would be a very good option

At the moment the player we have who can do that [and who has done it all his career] is Sanchez, so I am perfectly happy to play him in front of the back four, then Rice, and then four others, with the long-term plan to upgrade that position
Agree with this. It has to be at least two from Rice, Noble and Sanchez every week in my opinion otherwise the balance is just not right.

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