Just how big could West Ham be?

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bubbles1966
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Re: Just how big could West Ham be?

Post by bubbles1966 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:47 pm

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:And yet whilst all that cup success was happening we couldn't finish higher than 8th and only had two or three top half finishes. Very poor IMHO
West Ham was always a cup team, Crouchie.

The drabness of league football never compared to the glory of cup finals. Pre-Sky, winning the league was like winning a TV soap award, winning the cup was getting an Oscar.

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Re: Just how big could West Ham be?

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:07 pm

bubbles1966 wrote:
West Ham was always a cup team, Crouchie.

The drabness of league football never compared to the glory of cup finals. Pre-Sky, winning the league was like winning a TV soap award, winning the cup was getting an Oscar.

Maybe so, but why were we a cup team? Plenty of other clubs did well in both formats. We had the team in the 60s to be a lot better than 8th, in the league, but we didn't manage it

And let's be honest. We were a cup team for only 17 years of our history. The rest of the time we have been rubbish in all formats!

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Re: Just how big could West Ham be?

Post by Up the Junction » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:32 pm

Colours never run wrote:What quantifies being the right investment though?
Whatever it takes to achieve continuous success both on and off the field.

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Re: Just how big could West Ham be?

Post by bubbles1966 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:36 pm

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:Maybe so, but why were we a cup team? Plenty of other clubs did well in both formats. We had the team in the 60s to be a lot better than 8th, in the league, but we didn't manage it

And let's be honest. We were a cup team for only 17 years of our history. The rest of the time we have been rubbish in all formats!
It's fair to say that the golden age of West Ham (so far) was 1963-1986.

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Re: Just how big could West Ham be?

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:32 pm

It pretty much sums up our overall poorness when one 3rd place finish is able to extend our golden period by five seasons!

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Re: Just how big could West Ham be?

Post by carnage » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:13 pm

Up the Junction wrote: Whatever it takes to achieve continuous success both on and off the field.
10 million a point I reckon.

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Re: Just how big could West Ham be?

Post by Colours never run » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:40 am

Up the Junction wrote: Whatever it takes to achieve continuous success both on and off the field.
That's talking of levels of investment only Man City and Chelsea can afford. No one else is able to deliver continuous success on and off the pitch, predominantly on the field. That is if success is measured by delivering Cup Finals and Trophies like we used to get in the 60s/70s. I'm afraid that's never gonna happen and nor would I like to see us bankrolled by a sugar daddy using us as a plaything.

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Re: Just how big could West Ham be?

Post by S-H » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:45 am

Image

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Re: Just how big could West Ham be?

Post by carnage » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:47 am

Colours never run wrote: That's talking of levels of investment only Man City and Chelsea can afford. No one else is able to deliver continuous success on and off the pitch, predominantly on the field. That is if success is measured by delivering Cup Finals and Trophies like we used to get in the 60s/70s. I'm afraid that's never gonna happen and nor would I like to see us bankrolled by a sugar daddy using us as a plaything.
I would, I am 44, and want to see us actually win something. As it stands, it’s boring as ****. 10 years ago people said the same, and here we are spending 45 million on a Brazilian. The numbers are so large now that that’s all they are numbers. Who really cares if we spend 80 million or 400 million in a summer. Soon there will be 20 clubs as “play things”, and we will be consigned to never winning anything ever again. The romantic notion we can win something with a local owner with no money has long since sailed.

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Re: Just how big could West Ham be?

Post by Colours never run » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:23 am

Doesn't even have to be a local owner, just not one with a bottomless pit of money behind them to the levels of said Clubs. Horses for courses but it's definitely not the route I'd want to see is go down, buying our way to any success.

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Re: Just how big could West Ham be?

Post by carnage » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:30 am

Colours never run wrote:Doesn't even have to be a local owner, just not one with a bottomless pit of money behind them to the levels of said Clubs. Horses for courses but it's definitely not the route I'd want to see is go down, buying our way to any success.
How much is buying success? 100 million, 300 million, half a billion? The numbers are so large now it is irrelevant.

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Re: Just how big could West Ham be?

Post by Colours never run » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:34 am

Where money is no object. I like Clubs run that are self sustained and grow more organically, rather than just pumping endless money in to it to rush forward that success. Nothing says plastic, modern football better than buying your way to the top. Others will like it, but I'd honestly hate going the way of Chelsea and Man City. It would take a lot of the enjoyment out of it all, knowing it's only a matter of time before we buy yet another trophy. I will never be convinced by it, but I get why others are enticed because they've been starved of success for so long.

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Re: Just how big could West Ham be?

Post by bubbles500 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:35 am

BondsoBob wrote:We were well on the way to becoming a 'big' club in the mid 60's but due to a lack of vision and investment from the board it didn't quite happen.
Just to recap the mid 60's. FA cup winners in 1964 (when it meant something). European cup winners cup winners in 1965, when that was a very prestigious competition, and semi finalists in 1966. League cup finalists in 1966, and semi finalists in 1967, when that was first starting to be taken seriously. World cup 1966? Say no more. And let's not forget West Ham were one of the first clubs to regularly play exhibition matches in the USA when football was being heavily promoted over there.
I went to school in Battersea, south London, in the 1960's and 70's. The amount of West Ham supporters there was phenomenal.
We could and should have kicked on to become something special.
Although we were performing well in the cups we were still bottom half in the league with our best finish 9th in those years. Slightly odd considering the players we had we performed so poorly in the league. It does seem really odd that we’ve never had a golden period in the league even say 2 or 3 years. Even teams like Ipswich and QPR had that.

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Re: Just how big could West Ham be?

Post by HammerAl » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:40 am

Soon enough every club in the PL will be owned by a multi-billionaire, spending hundreds of millions on transfers and wages!

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Re: Just how big could West Ham be?

Post by carnage » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:17 am

Colours never run wrote:Where money is no object. I like Clubs run that are self sustained and grow more organically, rather than just pumping endless money in to it to rush forward that success. Nothing says plastic, modern football better than buying your way to the top. Others will like it, but I'd honestly hate going the way of Chelsea and Man City. It would take a lot of the enjoyment out of it all, knowing it's only a matter of time before we buy yet another trophy. I will never be convinced by it, but I get why others are enticed because they've been starved of success for so long.
There is pretty much no other way to win trophies anymore. Organically growing means what we have now, with owners putting no money in, but the business model has lead to what seems like endless relegation battles and crashing out of the cups in the early rounds. Personally I am sick of it and want us to see us win something before I die, and preferably more than 1 League Cup, which is the only trophy we have a chance of winning, and that’s slim.

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Re: Just how big could West Ham be?

Post by woodgreenspur » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:26 am

szola wrote:[quote="Up the Junction"
We've never been, imo.

The 60s was Tottenham's decade.
It pains me to say it, but even the success we had in the 60s,read most books from that era and the mob up the road were still considered a bigger club,not a better team ,but bigger club.

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Re: Just how big could West Ham be?

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:39 am

In the 60s, Spurs won the League, 3 FA Cups and European Cup Winners Cup. They also got to the SF of the European Cup. They also finished top 3 in the league four or five times and didn't once finish below 8th

As painful as it is, we had a good decade on the pitch, but they had a lot more success

They also had a decent start to the 70s with three cup wins, but then had a spectacular fall from grace culminating in relegation

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Re: Just how big could West Ham be?

Post by Colours never run » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:54 am

carnage wrote:
There is pretty much no other way to win trophies anymore. Organically growing means what we have now, with owners putting no money in, but the business model has lead to what seems like endless relegation battles and crashing out of the cups in the early rounds. Personally I am sick of it and want us to see us win something before I die, and preferably more than 1 League Cup, which is the only trophy we have a chance of winning, and that’s slim.
Off the top of my head, Wigan, Swansea, Birmingham, Portsmouth*, Spurs, Liverpool, Arsenal, Leicester have all won various competitions since Abramovich and the Sheikh rocked up, without relying on spending on the levels of your Man City's and Chelsea's and vast sums of money mostly coming from their personal wealth than relying on self sustainable finances eminating from the Club the way it should be more achieved from. For sure, it's not likely but it's not true it's impossible to win competitions with more modest finances, if the Club is run properly.

*Granted Portsmouth effectively cheated their way to the Cup by going through Admin but it weren't achieved on the City/Chelsea levels which ispre the point

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Re: Just how big could West Ham be?

Post by carnage » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:05 am

How many in the last 10 years Colours, other than Leicester. You can’t have Liverpool and Arsenal either, massive clubs with huge turnover.

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Re: Just how big could West Ham be?

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:45 am

carnage wrote:How many in the last 10 years Colours, other than Leicester. You can’t have Liverpool and Arsenal either, massive clubs with huge turnover.
Any top flight club could win one of the two cups at any point. It would take a lot of stars to align, and a lot of luck both in the draw and in the matches, but it is perfectly feasible

The long-term goal should not just be to win a 'one-off' cup, however great that would be, but to develop as a club so that we begin to erode the gap to the top six and are thus consistently challenging the top end of the table and have the capabilities to have consistent success in the cups i.e expect to reach the semi-finals, not just hope

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