VAR - yes or no ?

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LeonRivers
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Re: VAR - yes or no ?

Post by LeonRivers » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:58 am

GPW wrote:
The ref should use a replay screen to review his own decision - he knows what he thought he saw and why he concluded what he did so he is best placed to assess if that was an error. Another ref reviewing it remotely doesn’t know that so not wanting to break the collective spirit of the referees doesn’t do that.
Agreed. The system at the World Cup worked, but was very slow & clunky. There must be some way to use a tablet. Either a lightweight one the ref can carry or one off-pitch that can be brought on for the ref to use during a break in play.

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Colours never run
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Re: VAR - yes or no ?

Post by Colours never run » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:58 am

Why on earth wouldn't they iron out all the glaring problems with the system before railroading it through such a renowned League, **** knows? You don't (or they shouldn't) just muddle through it trialing and erroring as you mean to go on, as it makes a mockery of the League and especially the officiating. Why risk potentially pissing off audiences/long standing fans if you know you're not sure how it's supposed to work, they've even admitted themselves, yet they continue to play about with setting, no fan desperately asked for. It angers me, just as much as when it clearly doesn't work at times.

You'd think they'd get it down to a fine art, like they did with GL technology before finally introducing it, whilst protecting the integrity and reputation of the League. But no, it's all, 'well let's see how it goes, it's all an education for us refs too as we go along...' :eh:

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Re: VAR - yes or no ?

Post by Johnny Byrne's Boots » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:25 pm

A big danger is using the current season for shakedown trials, modifying its use as they learn how best to use it. This will result in playing games under different terms of reference in the same season, meaning Team A gets a penalty against Team B early in the season but because of a 'refinement' in the use of VAR Team C doesn't get one for the same occurrence.

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Re: VAR - yes or no ?

Post by frankiemac » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:43 pm

Colours never run wrote:Why on earth wouldn't they iron out all the glaring problems with the system before railroading it through such a renowned League, **** knows? You don't (or they shouldn't) just muddle through it trialing and erroring as you mean to go on, as it makes a mockery of the League and especially the officiating. Why risk potentially pissing off audiences/long standing fans if you know you're not sure how it's supposed to work, they've even admitted themselves, yet they continue to play about with setting, no fan desperately asked for. It angers me, just as much as when it clearly doesn't work at times.

You'd think they'd get it down to a fine art, like they did with GL technology before finally introducing it, whilst protecting the integrity and reputation of the League. But no, it's all, 'well let's see how it goes, it's all an education for us refs too as we go along...' :eh:
but where can you practice it?? we are the only league that can afford it!

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Coops
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Re: VAR - yes or no ?

Post by Coops » Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:46 pm

Didn't they invent google glasses a few years ago now? Surely there is a way for the ref to view the replay from the pitch without having to run over to the touch line. A lightweight tablet maybe.

The FA need to get passed this thing where the ref is seen as infallible. Human beings do make mistakes, if they do they should be flagged straight away and if the ref is not convinced he pulls out his tablets or pops on his google glasses and has a look from different angles.

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Wilko1304
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Re: VAR - yes or no ?

Post by Wilko1304 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:03 pm

They also didn't just bung it in without trials and a long time looking at how it's been used elsewhere and making their own decisions on its use.

It certainly hasn't made officiating worse, and in some places it has made it better. There haven't been any particularly bad delays in our games

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Wilko1304
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Re: VAR - yes or no ?

Post by Wilko1304 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:04 pm

Coops wrote:The FA need to get passed this thing where the ref is seen as infallible.
Tell that to football fans.

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scatts
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Re: VAR - yes or no ?

Post by scatts » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:13 pm

If it can’t pick up on penalties like the one against Haller at the weekend, I really don’t see the point of it.

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Re: VAR - yes or no ?

Post by jastons » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:45 pm

Isn't it about time refs were made to publish explanations of their decisions? I'm not saying every single foul, card etc but for things like the Haller 'penalty' or the Grealish 'goal'.

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Duff
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Re: VAR - yes or no ?

Post by Duff » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:48 pm

Was VAR actually working on Saturday? Against Man City it was up on the boards quite a bit that things were being reviewed, didn't see it once against Norwich?

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Re: VAR - yes or no ?

Post by Cuenca 'ammer » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:48 pm

at least the NFL have the cojones to send a letter the next day to the aggrieved team and apologise for piss poor refereeing decisions....

about time the PL did too........

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Re: VAR - yes or no ?

Post by jastons » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:07 pm

Duff wrote:Was VAR actually working on Saturday? Against Man City it was up on the boards quite a bit that things were being reviewed, didn't see it once against Norwich?
Was VAR working in any of the weekends games?

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Diogenes
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Re: VAR - yes or no ?

Post by Diogenes » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:35 pm

The elephant in the room is that it is still run by and managed by the referees and supported by its associations. I would argue that it needs to be independent. The things that VAR is there for are easily distinguishable and adjudge. You dont need fitness, years of training or an on depth knowledge of the laws of the game. Offside, handball, contact etc. you just need good eyesight, common sense and a basic checklist. This impartiality would ensure a speedier and more effective system and keep the referees on their toes knowing their mate is not in the box to defend them.

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Re: VAR - yes or no ?

Post by Cuenca 'ammer » Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:42 pm

maybe we could outsource it to India like most everything else....'

:D

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Re: VAR - yes or no ?

Post by westhamerica » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:59 pm

scatts wrote:If it can’t pick up on penalties like the one against Haller at the weekend, I really don’t see the point of it.
Would have been given as a penalty in MLS and there is a pretty good chance given the obvious nature they would have never gone to a screen. Even when the official heads to the screen now it is barely seconds, as the VAR guys are already in their ear with their conclusion and with the best possible angles. Would have been no more than a 30 second break during a throw-in, a stoppage which itself routinely lasts 15-20 seconds. Not sure why this isn't the operating standard for all leagues at this point.

Really, there is only one argument against and it is a good one, and it's the way it upsets the drama/storytelling of a match. Then again, when you're on the right side of VAR decision in a tight affair you'll be surprised how much VAR you can deal with.

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Re: VAR - yes or no ?

Post by BostonHammer » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:21 pm

The NFL has something that the EPL/VAR are crucially missing - the ability for the manager to "challenge" the call by throwing a flag onto the pitch, thereby pausing the match. NFL managers are limited to two per match.

Essentially, we'd have a staff member of ours in the media room and he'd be connected by radio to Pellegrini. He'd review the Haller incident, tell MP it's a defo peno, and MP throws a flag so that Andre Mariner HAS to decide.

Otherwise, as others have indicated, Mariner can choose to ignore his fellow referees bad call. We have to force them to do it. Will probably never happen or take another 5 years before we see it.

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Re: VAR - yes or no ?

Post by Johnny Byrne's Boots » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:16 pm

The NFL has something else the PL doesn't. play stopping after every pass or tackle.

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LeonRivers
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Re: VAR - yes or no ?

Post by LeonRivers » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:28 pm

scatts wrote:If it can’t pick up on penalties like the one against Haller at the weekend, I really don’t see the point of it.
Frank Lampard's disallowed goal vs Germany at the World Cup. Would have made it 2-2. We lost 4-1.

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Re: VAR - yes or no ?

Post by Cuenca 'ammer » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:38 pm

but they didn't have it then so there's no real comparison

I think scatts point is that we have it but seem only to selectively use it........

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Albie Beck
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Re: VAR - yes or no ?

Post by Albie Beck » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:41 pm

Johnny Byrne's Boots wrote:A big danger is using the current season for shakedown trials, modifying its use as they learn how best to use it. This will result in playing games under different terms of reference in the same season, meaning Team A gets a penalty against Team B early in the season but because of a 'refinement' in the use of VAR Team C doesn't get one for the same occurrence.
That's what I was saying earlier, JBB - I thought the terms of use had changed this weekend - definitely not being applied as in previous weekends. And that skews the league.
Duff wrote:Was VAR actually working on Saturday? Against Man City it was up on the boards quite a bit that things were being reviewed, didn't see it once against Norwich?
No nothing in our game at all - compare that to the Man C game... And very little usage in the other games either.

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