Bury FC: Dawson vs Dale (non WHU)

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fjthegrey
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Re: Bury FC: Dawson vs Dale (non WHU)

Post by fjthegrey » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:15 pm

It is in every Premier League clubs interest for the disparity in financial power between them and the football league to be as wide as possible.

If every football league club went out of business, there would be no relegation, something which I believe every Premier League club would currently vote for were it given to them as an option.

They have no interest in saving clubs like Bury, or even a former and at one time well established Prem club like Bolton. The Premier League, were it a conscious being, would be looking at the demise of these two clubs and seeing it as a positive symbol of it's own health. I'm sure there are a few c**** currently sitting in the wings of power who are thinking exactly that.

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Albie Beck
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Re: Bury FC: Dawson vs Dale (non WHU)

Post by Albie Beck » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:43 pm

This sort of thing's been going on for years.

Back in the 60s Brentwood & Warley were amateur and playing in the Isthmian at The Hive. They were bought by Bairstow (estate agent) and Cherry (Countryside Properties) and went pro in the Southern League as Brentwood Town. There was quite a bit of opposition but mostly just grumbling so it went through. After about 3 seasons the owners claimed that the club wasn't getting the support to be viable, and the lovely ground - opposite Larkins playing fields down the Ongar Road for those that don't know - became what it is today, a housing estate.

Bought by a couple of property magnates - who could have predicted that outcome...? :thdn:

wildkard
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Re: Bury FC: Dawson vs Dale (non WHU)

Post by wildkard » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:44 pm

My understanding is that it's almost impossible for the EFL to force out a new owner once they have bought the club, so just buy the club quickly before the EFL's checks can swing into gear, bingo, you're a club owner without any pre-purchase checks being done. Once you're in, tough titty EFL.

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Re: Bury FC: Dawson vs Dale (non WHU)

Post by sanchoz » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:05 pm

Series of grinding failures that left proud, historic Bury in ruins
In particular, alongside the insolvency which resulted in a company voluntary arrangement (CVA) denying suppliers, HMRC and other creditors 75% of the money Bury owed them, and the still outstanding wages due to players who won promotion last season, was a mortgage on Gigg Lane which Campbell and Newman appear to have found repellent.

The mortgage was taken out in stages by the previous owner, Stewart Day, who in December, as his own property empire was about to collapse into insolvency, sold the club to Steve Dale for £1.

The lender, a firm based in Crosby called Capital Bridging Finance Solutions (“Capital”), is now owed £3.7m. Capital in turn mortgaged Gigg Lane, most homely of football grounds, to a company based in Malta whose own lenders were eight companies registered in the tax haven of the British Virgin Islands. As revealed in the Guardian, large portions of the borrowed money never came to Bury at all, because 40% was paid as “introduction fees” to unnamed third parties.

Day justified that by saying it enabled a low interest rate, understood latterly to be 6%, but it is safe to say that one would not expect to find an arrangement like that on Bury’s home ground. That – along with another mortgage on the social club and what they politely described as “the overall financial state of the club” – was perhaps a major reason for Campbell and Newman deciding they did not really need the steaming mess at Bury in their currently prospering lives.
As Frith established, and the EFL confirmed, Dale completed his £1 takeover without ever complying with the league’s rules that new owners must demonstrate they have the money to sustain a club, “proof of funding”. A major flaw in the rules is the lack of appropriate sanction for an owner who flouts them: the takeover cannot be denied. Instead a registration embargo was imposed and matches were suspended, but Bury itself – the club, loyally supported – were faced with the threat of expulsion, and not Dale himself.

The “fit and proper person” owners and directors test is waiting to be expanded into more than just a basic check of criminal convictions, but having agreed that in principle last summer, the clubs have still not settled on the practicalities.

Other EFL rules, much vaunted, to encourage clubs to spend within their means on players’ wages are deeply flawed because owners are allowed to pour in extra money to pay them, as long as they invest it as shares rather than loans. That is apparently what Stewart Day did, signing players Bury could not afford by lending money from his property companies and converting those millions into shares. But when his companies fell into multimillion-pound insolvencies, he had no more money for Bury and the club’s wage bill was immediately ruinous.

The alarm should have been rung in 2014, when Day took out a loan with 138% annual interest secured on Gigg Lane, but it never was and he was able to continue.

Although there is widespread sympathy for Bury supporters and deep sentiment for the football heritage, among other clubs and many fans there is also exasperation at the promotion from League Two won last season with an excellent team the club could not afford to pay. Hence the support from clubs for the firm line maintained by the EFL board.

Frith has also called for an investigation into the deal by which a company, RCR Holdings, bought for £70,000 any potential claim against Bury by Day’s company Mederco, which is in administration. The Mederco administrator told creditors it was uncertain if a claim could be made, as loans from Mederco did appear to have been converted into shares at the club. Nevertheless, the potential claim was admitted into the Bury CVA as a £7m debt owed to Mederco. RCR’s £7m vote enabled Dale to have the CVA passed with the necessary majority of creditors. RCR’s sole owner and director, Kris Richards, confirmed to BBC Radio Manchester that he is Dale’s daughter’s partner. Dale responded: “All dealings with the CVA have been done in a correct and proper manner.”

So that is where the Victorian founders’ beautiful game, with its sporting values and character‑building virtues, got to at Gigg Lane, Bury, in 2019.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... cial-ruins" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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S-H
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Re: Bury FC: Dawson vs Dale (non WHU)

Post by S-H » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:44 pm

There might still be hope..

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ivan Lewis
‏Verified account @IvanLewis_MP

In the past hour we have written to #EFL urging them to reconsider their decision to expel @buryfcofficial from the League. The EFL have proof of funds from a credible global organisation which has agreed a purchase with Steve Dale. Bury FC can+should be saved.@forever_bury

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Re: Bury FC: Dawson vs Dale (non WHU)

Post by binary » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:47 pm

A really sad day and you can't help feeling the tip of a very sizeable iceberg. The obsession with the Premiership and the Champions League has pulled people away from the sheer joy (and equal despair) of following a local team. I've always thought that once one club had the rug pulled out from under it, it's going to be easier to try and justify doing it to others. The professional football landscape could look very different in the next ten years. It's unreal to think it could be Bolton Wanderers next.

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Re: Bury FC: Dawson vs Dale (non WHU)

Post by Danny's Dyer Acting » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:55 pm

binary wrote:A really sad day and you can't help feeling the tip of a very sizeable iceberg. The obsession with the Premiership and the Champions League has pulled people away from the sheer joy (and equal despair) of following a local team. I've always thought that once one club had the rug pulled out from under it, it's going to be easier to try and justify doing it to others. The professional football landscape could look very different in the next ten years. It's unreal to think it could be Bolton Wanderers next.
I'm not sure this is quite right. The issue is the people in charge, not the fans.

https://www.worldfootball.net/attendanc ... 06-2007/1/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you look through here, League One attendances are pretty much the same as they were 15 years ago. The only real changes are when you get one or two relatively big clubs (like Sunderland currently) dropping in and boosting the numbers for a year or so.

Imagine the good it would do, both practically and in PR terms, if the Premier League clubs each put it a one off £5m to build a fund for situations like this? The FA or FL could pay off the debts and take ownership of the club until fans can put together a plan to take the club over and get it back on it's feet.

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Re: Bury FC: Dawson vs Dale (non WHU)

Post by wildkard » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:00 pm

Hardly fair to other clubs is it? The Guardian touched on it. Bury won promotion with better players than those around them, but couldn't afford to pay those better players. Why should they get their debts paid by a fund from the PL? What's to stop other clubs doing the same and getting their debts paid off?

The real simple answer is this, however cold hearted it is - do not spend beyond your means.

binary
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Re: Bury FC: Dawson vs Dale (non WHU)

Post by binary » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:11 pm

Sorry, I meant more in how the owners, business and the media treat the lower divisions and the lack of coverage they receive. How Bury was allowed to be sold to Dale and this situation to arise just wouldn't happen to any of the big clubs these days.

Having said that, a friend of mine in Brighton said when they were in the Championship, they offered a free summer soccer school and they had to cancel to lack of interest. I'm sure they wouldn't/don't have any troubles running one these days.

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Hatcham Iron
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Re: Bury FC: Dawson vs Dale (non WHU)

Post by Hatcham Iron » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:20 pm

For me a sad day for any who love brass roots football clubs Im glad I have experienced the good old days of football for the ordinary bloke and families cos those days are history let's hope bury can do a Wimbledon and come back through the league system :crest:

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Re: Bury FC: Dawson vs Dale (non WHU)

Post by westham,eggyandchips » Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:08 pm

S-H wrote:I know that I shouldn't be.. but I'm listening to Jim white this morning on Talk Sport..

What a prick.
Caught 5 mins of that utter helmet banging on about the state of finances in the EPL. Then gets all cosy with the owner of Derby Mel Morris, the bloke about to pay Wayne Rooney £100,000 a week.

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Re: Bury FC: Dawson vs Dale (non WHU)

Post by fmgod » Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:03 pm

The one that annoys me is Bournemouth, they're basically Man city, get tiny crowds, failed FFP, yet everyone think it's fine, murky Russian owner too, Bournemouth is ready to go pop as soon as that owner leaves

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fjthegrey
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Re: Bury FC: Dawson vs Dale (non WHU)

Post by fjthegrey » Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:25 pm

Nobody is going pop whilst they play in the Prem. Not anymore.

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Re: Bury FC: Dawson vs Dale (non WHU)

Post by Puff Daddy » Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:30 pm

I doubt this is the end for Bury, I'm certain they will rise again. History is on their side This has happened to a few other clubs before and below is one story to give them hope. Many of you, I suspect, have never realised that Gateshead, now in the 6th tier of English football, but have nearly got back into the Football League on a few occasions, were once a Football league team up until 1960

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/english ... spartandhp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Bury FC: Dawson vs Dale (non WHU)

Post by hammers92 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:47 pm

For the PL and EFL, it's a moral choice whether you say no to an individual wanting to buy a club promising the world. We said yes to Man City, we said yes to Chelsea and that culture feeds into the lower leagues.

The only way to make the point is for a mass boycott of all 92 clubs on a certain weekend.

Fans? Nobody cares about them anymore.

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Re: Bury FC: Dawson vs Dale (non WHU)

Post by WCpete » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:08 pm

This is who the EFL thought was fit for purpose to be owner of Bury FC. To me the league is as culpable or more so than the dirty owners.

https://twitter.com/bbc5live/status/1164956024106889217

Never been to Bury. So for me it was way to walk away. Didn’t even k ow they had a football club. I don’t like football.”

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Re: Bury FC: Dawson vs Dale (non WHU)

Post by YorksHammer » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:20 am

westham,eggyandchips wrote:Caught 5 mins of that utter helmet banging on about the state of finances in the EPL. Then gets all cosy with the owner of Derby Mel Morris, the bloke about to pay Wayne Rooney £100,000 a week.
Not all of it - it's part funded by the betting company that sponsors Derby, which is incredibly distasteful.

Whilst PL clubs couldn't give money to Bury while they continued to exist, I think the right thing to do now is for the teams in the PL to come together and front the wages for the players and staff through the season. We've already heard how the Bury players stand to lose/have to sell houses, but I'm sure the impact is even greater for Doris the tea lady or Frank the ticket man. The footballing community coming together to support them through this time until they get back on their feet would be a superb action.

All this hand wringing from everyone, but if nobody actually does anything to support those who lose money from the result of the liquidation it means nothing.

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Re: Bury FC: Dawson vs Dale (non WHU)

Post by wildkard » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:51 am

EFL have paid the players wages haven’t they?

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Re: Bury FC: Dawson vs Dale (non WHU)

Post by YorksHammer » Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:33 am

wildkard wrote:EFL have paid the players wages haven’t they?
I don't believe so - the PFA loaned the club money to pay some of the wages, but I don't think it was the full amount. I'm not sure what the PFA do now to support players given they don't have a club?

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Re: Bury FC: Dawson vs Dale (non WHU)

Post by sanchoz » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:26 pm

The thought that I will never put the Bury shirt on again is soul-destroying
By Stephen Dawson, bury player
Even right up to the last minute, I did not think it was going to happen. I could not believe that they were going to let a club with Bury’s history die like that. Not with the money there is in the game.

On Tuesday, like the fans, I was waiting for news. At first, it seemed as though there was going to be a takeover; you are thinking, maybe there’s new hope, new money coming in. When that bid disappeared, the rumour was there were three others on table.

“You thought surely the English Football League would extend the deadline – 8pm, 9pm, 10pm came and went, and you do not know what is happening.

Then, when the news broke at 11pm, I just sat there in disbelief. I woke up again at 5am and headed downstairs and just sat there, numb. I have not been able to eat since it happened. The thought that I will never put the shirt on again is soul-destroying.

If I am honest, I should have seen it coming. This has not been going on for a couple of weeks. It has been a slow torture, a never-ending seven or eight months of hell, of CVA agreements and loan facilities and the chairman telling us to our faces he would sort it.

Why did it take so long for the EFL to get proof of funds off a man who you could tell from the get-go had not got any? I have not been paid for 18 weeks. By Tuesday, there were only four of us players left at the club, and we were told because of sales of other squad members there would be money to pay us what we were owed. Now I know it will not happen.

I am unemployed. The first thing I did was put my house on the market. I just do not know where the money will come from to pay the mortgage. I got a text from the Professional Footballers’ Association telling me there is nothing standing in my way now and I can find another club. I need to get one; a man has to provide for his family.

Here is hoping I find another club, but for the generations of families who have loved Bury over the years, it has gone, all gone. I went to the training ground to say goodbye to everyone and, honestly, it breaks your heart. The kit man who has been there for years, who loves the club, who has given his soul to it, just kicked in the teeth.

That is what hits you. Seeing all the people turning up on Tuesday to clean the ground, the fans from many other clubs coming to help, the love, the optimism, the hope: that will live long in the memory.

I believe there is the passion to find a way to rebirth. But this can never be allowed to happen again. Football clubs are too important: this must be the last time.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... estroying/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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