'Tactical fouls'

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WHU_Del
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'Tactical fouls'

Post by WHU_Del » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:19 pm

Article on the BBC website after Pellegrini's comments last week:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49371002" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I noticed this quote from Pat Nevin:
"It looks more clear with City because of the number of players they send forward. It will be quite a clear and obvious foul. It just looks a certain way," said Nevin.

"From the side it just jumps out at you. They attack with bigger numbers and then might be outnumbered and it might be five on four.

"It's utilising the rules to the best of your ability. I don't know any team that hasn't done that.

"If I was playing and we were four on two and I didn't take the foul, my manager would be furious. It's instinctive and intuitive."
I played amateur football for years, almost all of it at full-back, and I can't say that it ever occurred to me to deliberately commit a foul. Is that odd?

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DM
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Re: 'Tactical fouls'

Post by DM » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:48 pm

If I was a manager and you didn't take one for the team I would be incensed. It happens at under 9's now and it's what it is. The professional foul has existed since the game began .

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Faithless
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Re: 'Tactical fouls'

Post by Faithless » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:28 pm

I don't know why Pat Nevin refers to this as taking one for the team, this isn't taking one for the team, this is committing a foul before taking one for the team is needed, that's why they don't get booked. They're fouling the guy that win's the ball and before a counter can be started, they're not hacking down the guy on the break and getting booked.

It's clever but only because the ref's let it go unpunished as it isn't seen worthy of a booking despite it having the same affect as hacking someone on the break down. You can only take "one" for the team if your foul will clearly result in you getting a yellow/red card.
WHU_Del wrote:I played amateur football for years, almost all of it at full-back, and I can't say that it ever occurred to me to deliberately commit a foul. Is that odd?
Same as position wise but I'd take a yellow to stop a clear goal scoring chance all day long, even a red in the last few minutes :wink:

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Hammer Laffers
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Re: 'Tactical fouls'

Post by Hammer Laffers » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:29 pm

The ‘big’ teams have done it for years.

Lost count of the amount of times one of them have been 1-0 up with 10 minutes to go against us and we’ve broken away after a corner only for a player to take one for the team in the center circle.

Probably (rightly or wrongly) an important part of the game.

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lukechadwick
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Re: 'Tactical fouls'

Post by lukechadwick » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:41 pm

No difference to diving tbh. Deliberate foul with no intention of winning by ball is cheating and should be a yellow every time.

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hammer1975
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Re: 'Tactical fouls'

Post by hammer1975 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:48 pm

Hammer Laffers wrote:The ‘big’ teams have done it for years.

Lost count of the amount of times one of them have been 1-0 up with 10 minutes to go against us and we’ve broken away after a corner only for a player to take one for the team in the center circle.

Probably (rightly or wrongly) an important part of the game.
Agree. It’s an inherent bias too as the referee has become programmed to think:

1 - Clumsy De Bruyne didn’t mean to take out someone as he’s such a skilful player and just isn’t used to tackling plus the mid table team probably wouldn’t have scored anyway because the move in probability would have broken down, free kick, no card

Versus

2 - Mark Noble knew what he was doing taking out one of Man City’s wonderful midfielders as they were about to break who probably would have gone on to set up a chance - yellow card.

fmgod
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Re: 'Tactical fouls'

Post by fmgod » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:04 pm

Pep and others have been doing it for years, I think a lot of it is sub-conscious for the refs, ie Diame, Bouba-Diop, Noble etc catch someone obviously it's on purpose and yellow, David Silva(very dirty), Jorginho, Salah and so forth catch someone who it was an accident they're a skill player

YorksHammer
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Re: 'Tactical fouls'

Post by YorksHammer » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:16 pm

Pretty sure Pep's Barcelona had more fouls committed by the front three than the back four across the season pretty regularly. It's a massive part of a team having an opportunity to regain a defensive shape.

We should do it.

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prophet:marginal
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Re: 'Tactical fouls'

Post by prophet:marginal » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:19 pm

Noble is perfectly adept at the other side of the coin, in all honesty; he could score a decision off any ref going.

My Palace mates call him 'Am Dram Noble'

Even Saint Crouchie nearly always placed both palms against a defender's back and pushed, the moment a cross was flighted across the box

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Hammersfaniow
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Re: 'Tactical fouls'

Post by Hammersfaniow » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:04 pm

Every team does it, been going on for years. If a team loses possession when bombing forward, or if a corner is cleared and a break is on, it’s commonplace for a ‘tactical’ foul to take place to stop the oppositions attack gaining momentum. Nothing new really.

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Re: 'Tactical fouls'

Post by goa127 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:36 am

My favourite complaint about Man city. The difference between the normal 'taking one for the team' type of foul that stops a break and the city tactical fouling is that the fouls are committed as soon as the opposition gains possession strangling any break at birth. The ref just sees a minor foul so no booking. The foul count in their game against us told the story. In a 5-0 game, a foul count of 13-5 would normally be expected to be committed by the losing side as they chase shadows. For it to be reversed is truly extraordinary. It enables city to attack in great numbers, because any potential break will be stopped allowing the team to regroup. Interestingly Michael Oliver booked Sterling very early in the game against spurs and the fouling was much less. He had obviously noted the publicity

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westham,eggyandchips
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Re: 'Tactical fouls'

Post by westham,eggyandchips » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:56 am

Clever gamesmanship whilst Man City et al are at it.

The moment everyone does it, then it'll be pulled up.

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Patito
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Re: 'Tactical fouls'

Post by Patito » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:09 am

The BBC article is hilarious. Desperately trying to defend their precious champions. "Why are City so maligned?" :lol:

Row X
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Re: 'Tactical fouls'

Post by Row X » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:42 am

Diop done one late on in the game on Saturday, he defo knew what he was doing and it was the right thing to do. He did get booked though.

Spit the Dog, also done one Saturday but I'm pretty sure he didn't even know he did it, as it was in one of his many panic moments.

All teams do it, just that some teams, like Man City, do it every 2 minutes.

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Re: 'Tactical fouls'

Post by codger » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:04 am

We all know what the BBC is like. If Adolf Hitler was alive they would probably defend him.
Modern culture unfortunately has changed dramtically in the last fifty years.
We have become a lawless society and morals of too many have taken a turn for the worse.
Honesty is a word that mean nothing nowadays. It is all too often every man for himself.
I find it so sad that decent thinking people who try to do the right thing are so grossly outnumbered
by those who don't give a damn about anyone but themselves.
What is even more saddening is that it is considered the norm and has become a modern day disease.
I speak as someone who lived through and was aware of the second world war and the following years when everyone tried to help everyone else. You could leave your home unlocked in safety and walk the streets without fearing an attack from anyone.
Over the decades morals declined and society in general become very selfish and non caring.
Sure, there were still plenty of honest decent people around but standards have dropped to the point where dishonesty is accepted as the norm.
Which brings us to tactical fouls. Many of you seem to accept it and think it is OK. I can assure you that this has not always been the case and during the years that west ham enjoyed success in winning trophies this was most certainly NOT the norm. It is dishonesty and cheating and if you embrace that then you are part of problem. We lost two of our best players because of this so called acceptable cheating just remember that. Unfortunately West Hams comparative honesty is costing us and those who advocate cheating in return are part of this modern day disease. Cynical Dishonesty.

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hammer1975
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Re: 'Tactical fouls'

Post by hammer1975 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:08 am

fmgod wrote:Pep and others have been doing it for years, I think a lot of it is sub-conscious for the refs, ie Diame, Bouba-Diop, Noble etc catch someone obviously it's on purpose and yellow, David Silva(very dirty), Jorginho, Salah and so forth catch someone who it was an accident they're a skill player
:thup:

The BBC analysis conveniently leaves out yellow cards versus fouls.

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Estuary
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Re: 'Tactical fouls'

Post by Estuary » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:26 am

The Spanish disease, Martinez, Guardiola make this part of team instructions in midfield, nobody runs beyond a Man City midfielder. Everton were the same when Martinez was coach, foul in rotation, its coached and their teams get away with it because the media puff up the myth that their teams play purer passing football and refs buy in. Anyone who saw us v City could see that they were drilled to commit tactical fouls in midfield to break up our possession, Barca are masters of it to. Its always been part of Spanish and Italian football, but the Spanish are by far the better at it.

It was an absolute joke that the first yellow card in home game v City was against us.

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BobbyWHU
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Re: 'Tactical fouls'

Post by BobbyWHU » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:33 pm

Isn't that bad if you know how to deal with it, during the City game they committed the foul then ran away. If our player who was failed just took the foul, put the ball down immediately and played on it wouldn't be such a momentum killer. It happened numerous times, however we wait for everyone to get set again and inevitably Fabianski lofts the ball up top and we lose possession. I can understand it against City to get some rest, kill time - but we have a habit of spending an age doing things against the lesser teams.

Of course it all goes out the window if the fouling player picks up the ball, so depends on the circumstance. I am all for it though, if we started being a bit smarter and doing it as Pellegrini referred to, I don't think we would concede as many goals.

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Re: 'Tactical fouls'

Post by Rocket » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:36 pm

DM wrote:If I was a manager and you didn't take one for the team I would be incensed. It happens at under 9's now and it's what it is. The professional foul has existed since the game began .
The ridiculous win-at-all-costs mentality at youth is one of the reasons why there is a dearth of talent in English football.

Stulaw
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Re: 'Tactical fouls'

Post by Stulaw » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:48 pm

Row X wrote:Diop done one late on in the game on Saturday, he defo knew what he was doing and it was the right thing to do. He did get booked though..
That was Masuaku, not Diop.

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