Season Ticket waiting list.

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Northbank Bar
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Season Ticket waiting list.

Post by Northbank Bar » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:20 pm

Below is a copy of letter Emailed to West Ham today.A copy was also EMailed to the Football Supporters Federation who are supporting us in this campaign.

Jake Heath,
Supporters Services Manager,
WHUFC.,
London Stadium,
E20 2ST.

August 29th 2019

Dear Jake,
Re: SEASON TICKET WAITING LIST
We write at the request of our members regarding the challenges and confusion experienced by them regarding West Ham’s Season Ticket Waiting List.
As you will be aware, the list is currently advertised as “the only way to secure a season ticket”, a statement we believe is at best misleading and could yet be construed as false advertising by the advertising standards agency, (whom we have not engaged at this point) as it appears to be in breach of the advertising codes.
By way of example, literature produced and circulated by the club, prior to the start of the 2019-20 season, makes clear references to the fact that season tickets could, be acquired by supporters who were not on the list.
Furthermore, existing season ticket holders have regularly been offered extra season tickets and those on the waiting list can now purchase more than one season ticket (effectively meaning they can enable friends and family to bypass supporters already in the queue).
This does not seem a fair, let alone a proper process, raising questions as to whether the club’s intention here is to best serve its loyal fanbase, or create additional revenue with its confusing claim, seemingly duping its supporters in the process.
As such, a number of our members believe that the list is neither advertised fairly, is fair in itself, or is in fact fit for purpose and request that you, in your capacity as supporter liaison officer, co-ordinate a meeting with the club and Hammers United to discuss this matter on their behalf.
We have a number of demonstrable examples which we would like to review with you in an effort to restore the credibility of the club on this issue with our members, and work with the club to create an improved system for the benefit of all West Ham fans.
We look forward to hearing from you.
Yours Sincerely,
Lee Rogers
Joint Secretary, Hammers United.

We are doing our best to improve things for West Ham supporters.Check our website out http://www.hammersunited.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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hornchurch_hammer80
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Re: Season Ticket waiting list.

Post by hornchurch_hammer80 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:30 pm

I’ll be very interested if you get a reply.. I am one that joined the waiting list didn’t get anything this season, however I found a couple of single seats near the back of upper tier and emailed the club about getting them, as they are wasted otherwise.

Just got a blunt email back saying season ticket sales are closed and won’t be open again until March next year.

What annoys me is having friends not even on the list getting offered season tickets... I’m happy to wait in a fair system but this just goes to show how bad the list is....

I also know someone who got an away season ticket this year, they didn’t have a load of points and went to a handful of games last season... im sure there’s a few people that would have been ahead of them.

mushy
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Re: Season Ticket waiting list.

Post by mushy » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:48 pm

hornchurch_hammer80 wrote:
I also know someone who got an away season ticket this year, they didn’t have a load of points and went to a handful of games last season... im sure there’s a few people that would have been ahead of them.
Have you any idea how they managed it?
It has been suggested on here that if you renew your season ticket on day one, you jump to the head of the away season ticket waiting list.

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Phil S
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Re: Season Ticket waiting list.

Post by Phil S » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:50 pm

Great work from Hammers United

There's a real bad smell about the ST waiting list.

Transparency required.

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Knighter10WHU
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Re: Season Ticket waiting list.

Post by Knighter10WHU » Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:27 pm

Good stuff HU. This is the first in a number of ticketing issues that the club face where quite simply a bit of transparency would solve all of this and not treating supporters like morons.

Another simple example would be to publish how many season ticket holders have how many away priority points so people can make a good estimate of how many tickets will be sold to which points band.

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hornchurch_hammer80
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Re: Season Ticket waiting list.

Post by hornchurch_hammer80 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:06 pm

Have you any idea how they managed it?
It has been suggested on here that if you renew your season ticket on day one, you jump to the head of the away season ticket waiting list.[/quote]

I’m not sure how they managed it? I’m sure they renewed as soon as, so possibly you could be correct..

Johnzo
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Re: Season Ticket waiting list.

Post by Johnzo » Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:26 pm

Great and well worded letter HU. Great to see coordinated and well warranted scrutiny against the club

Watford 'Ammer
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Re: Season Ticket waiting list.

Post by Watford 'Ammer » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:21 pm

Knighter10WHU wrote:Good stuff HU. This is the first in a number of ticketing issues that the club face where quite simply a bit of transparency would solve all of this and not treating supporters like morons.

Another simple example would be to publish how many season ticket holders have how many away priority points so people can make a good estimate of how many tickets will be sold to which points band.
I think this is something Hammers United could definitely (and I’m sure will) pick up.

It’ll be interesting to see what comes back from the club on this very specific issue, but it does typify the wider problem. Transparency, consideration and communication isn’t too much to ask for. As you say, there are some tangible and manageable improvements the club could make and a refusal to engage on that level would be continued poor form. It’ll be interesting to see how the club responds as we go.

Kialos
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Re: Season Ticket waiting list.

Post by Kialos » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:28 pm

Very good letter and I am pleased Hammers United have considered the ASA as an avenue to pursue. The club certainly wont be able to fob them off like they try to with independent supporters groups.

It's bad enough that the list has been a farce from the start but the fact so many fans have paid money in good faith to be on it makes it even more an issue.

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Dwight1970
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Re: Season Ticket waiting list.

Post by Dwight1970 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:59 pm

hornchurch_hammer80 wrote:
I’m not sure how they managed it? I’m sure they renewed as soon as, so possibly you could be correct..
That is interesting to hear as I might have mentioned a few times I have a friend with close to the max PPs who has been refused an AST for the last 2 seasons but I know he renews his ST near to the deadline so that might explain a lot.

So the AST which started out as a kind of reward for loyal fans it is possibly now for new applicants a matter of first come first served regardless of loyalty shown previously, interesting approach from the club that.

Kialos
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Re: Season Ticket waiting list.

Post by Kialos » Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:44 pm

I would have assumed that the away season ticket waiting list was based on the time you joined the list. That's usually how waiting lists work but who knows with West Ham. Nothing seems to be straightforward.

Watford 'Ammer
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Re: Season Ticket waiting list.

Post by Watford 'Ammer » Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:35 pm

I think the approach from Hammers United is the right one. The membership appears to be growing steadily and they have made reasonable and achievable requests of the club. The approaches to the club seem well considered and seem to be under the overarching banner of improving the experience for fans; which I think everyone would be in support of.

Look forward to hearing more :thup:

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Re: Season Ticket waiting list.

Post by hamstas_paradise » Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:41 pm

hornchurch_hammer80 wrote:......... however I found a couple of single seats near the back of upper tier and emailed the club about getting them, as they are wasted otherwise.

Just got a blunt email back saying season ticket sales are closed and won’t be open again until March next year.
I think the letter about the lack of transparency in the waiting list is a good thing.

However this post about finding spare seats is probably a red herring. This is how I see it. There are various unsold seats all around the stadium which are gaps because the 52000 sold season tickets are not all neatly grouped together. The licenced stadium capacity has been reached via 52000 season tickets, the matchday sales allocation and the number set aside for away fans circa 2800 I think. There is a group of six seats near me, among a block consisting mainly of season ticket holders, which are often empty, or are occupied by different people each match. The licenced stadium capacity is 60000, but it isn’t exactly the same 60000 seats for every match. The match day sales might sell different seats depending on what price bands people want, until 60000 is reached. For matches vs Burnley for instance where they might bring only a 1000, and don’t take the upper tier of the away end, then the club can sell more of the vacant seats around the rest of the stadium to home fans until 60000 are sold in total.

So I don’t think any unoccupied seats are being denied to people on the waiting list - the lack of transparency and fairness in the list is a different and very valid issue.

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the pink palermo
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Re: Season Ticket waiting list.

Post by the pink palermo » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:19 am

A good sensible campaign for a supporters group to campain on.

However, and playing Devils advocate here, what's the end game , what is the campaign hoping to achieve ?

Surely the club can simply say "terribly sorry, admin cock up, we'll refund anyone who can prove, by attending the ticket office in person, they were charged £10, and we will no longer keep a list".

And that's it.

Are the club under a legal obligation to publish, to anyone, how many ST's they have sold, or are for sale ?

Are the club under any legal obligation to sell the same number each year ?

Are the club under any obligation , other than to 808 Bondholders, to sell season or any other kind of ticket in a particular order ?

I'd be delighted if yet another scam the club are operating gets shut down, but how will that being done get anyone without a ST get one ?

Northbank Bar
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Re: Season Ticket waiting list.

Post by Northbank Bar » Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:06 pm

Pink Palermo.What we want to achieve is transparency and fairness.A supporter on the list should know where he or she is on that list and therefore have some idea of how long they will have to wait.To most of our fans the cost of a season ticket needs to be budgeted and planned for.

Supporters are also surely entitled to expect fair treatment.The current system is not fair and there are so many well documented anomalies.

West Ham United have considerable resources at their disposal and should be able to create a better system.It is not a issue of what their legal obligations are, but more what their moral obligations are to the supporters.

Finally you ask how changing the system will help a person without a S.T.get one.-With respect that is not the issue.The issue is that what tickets are available should be issued fairly .

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Tross
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Re: Season Ticket waiting list.

Post by Tross » Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:55 pm

the pink palermo wrote:A good sensible campaign for a supporters group to campain on.

However, and playing Devils advocate here, what's the end game , what is the campaign hoping to achieve ?

Surely the club can simply say "terribly sorry, admin cock up, we'll refund anyone who can prove, by attending the ticket office in person, they were charged £10, and we will no longer keep a list".

And that's it.

Are the club under a legal obligation to publish, to anyone, how many ST's they have sold, or are for sale ?

Are the club under any legal obligation to sell the same number each year ?

Are the club under any obligation , other than to 808 Bondholders, to sell season or any other kind of ticket in a particular order ?

I'd be delighted if yet another scam the club are operating gets shut down, but how will that being done get anyone without a ST get one ?

Hi Pinky,

The Endgame. . . why how very Marvel Avengers of you old boy!

In the first instance, we are (quite rightly I believe) giving the club the opportunity to engage with a number of its disgruntled supporters who have chosen Hammers United as their elected medium through which they wish to engage and restore the damaged credibility that the current "system" has caused.

As such, given the frustration and disappointment shared with us by a number of our members, I'm unsure a "pop down the ticket office and collect your tenner squire" approach would achieve that end.

One would of course hope the club cares enough about their supporters concerns to engage, and as a voluntary supporters group that doesn't charge its members and has a limited resource, we would most certainly rather engage with them to address and resolve the situation collaboratively, with a focus on their moral obligations at this stage (as mentioned by Northbank Bar), than further explore their legal obligations, where they could well find themselves in breach of such.

The team at H.U. continue to review the many obligations, both legal and moral, that we believe the club have to both its paying supporters and global fanbase, and this is of course just one of a number of such initiatives we are driving forward.

We also believe that West Ham, with its huge marketing budget, numerous heavily titled executives, and sponsorship partners, has invested a considerable amount building out the "West Ham United FC Brand" if you will. Nobody, least of all Hammers United, would want to see any of that damaged with the bad press that would potentially follow any introspection for example by the ASA!

We'd feel the same about the reputations of our board, and any potential embarrassment to them, in particular our CEO, who of course has a marketing background, a number of business awards to her credit and is a regular public speaker at business events.

Ultimately, an improved system, that provides the required levels of clarity (legally and morally) and stands up to the scrutiny of the West Ham fans it's actually there to serve, as well as serving the commercial function required by the club as a key part of its operational infrastructure I believe would be seen as a positive outcome for both parties, and deliver against the expectations of our members.

Hope that helps.

Best,

Tross
8-)

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Re: Season Ticket waiting list.

Post by RichieRiv » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:03 pm

Phil S wrote:There's a real bad smell about the ST waiting list..
Yeah, unicorn *****

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3hammers
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Re: Season Ticket waiting list.

Post by 3hammers » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:11 pm

Yeah it's definitely not a fair system if there are people supposedly paid up to be on the list but haven't been offered one! I'm not on any waiting list I'm aware of, never paid to be on one, but before the start of this season I received numerous emails, text messages and 2 phonecalls from the club offering me a season ticket. As much as I'd love one I don't even live in the country anymore so it'd be pretty pointless - especially as I've still been getting messages every week trying to sell me hospitality tickets

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the pink palermo
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Re: Season Ticket waiting list.

Post by the pink palermo » Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:07 pm

Northbank Bar wrote:What we want to achieve is transparency and fairness.A supporter on the list should know where he or she is on that list and therefore have some idea of how long they will have to wait
Supporters are also surely entitled to expect fair treatment.The current system is not fair and there are so many well documented anomalies.

West Ham United have considerable resources at their disposal and should be able to create a better system.It is not a issue of what their legal obligations are, but more what their moral obligations are to the supporters.

The issue is that what tickets are available should be issued fairly .
Northbank Bar - to be clear I wouldn't disagree with any of that, save for one key point which I'll come on to below the section of Tross's post I'll cut and paste.
Tross wrote: In the first instance, we are (quite rightly I believe) giving the club the opportunity to engage with a number of its disgruntled supporters who have chosen Hammers United as their elected medium through which they wish to engage and restore the damaged credibility that the current "system" has caused.

One would of course hope the club cares enough about their supporters concerns to engage, ...... we would most certainly rather engage with them to address and resolve the situation collaboratively, with a focus on their moral obligations at this stage (as mentioned by Northbank Bar), than further explore their legal obligations, where they could well find themselves in breach of such.

We also believe that West Ham, with its huge marketing budget, numerous heavily titled executives, and sponsorship partners, has invested a considerable amount building out the "West Ham United FC Brand" if you will. Nobody, least of all Hammers United, would want to see any of that damaged with the bad press that would potentially follow any introspection for example by the ASA!

Ultimately, an improved system, that provides the required levels of clarity (legally and morally) and stands up to the scrutiny of the West Ham fans it's actually there to serve, as well as serving the commercial function required by the club as a key part of its operational infrastructure I believe would be seen as a positive outcome for both parties, and deliver against the expectations of our members.
Tross, again, I wouldn't disagree with much of that save for one or two key points.

Both your post and Northbank Bars post are asking for reasonable treatment for supporters, and you're asking in a reasonable way.

You're both being polite, you're both asking for what really ought to be, for any fair observer, an easily deliverable outcome for both the club and supporters.

Or put another way, how hard can it be for a business with nearly £200m of turnover to keep a list of people who wish to buy their product, with those who have been on the list the longest nearest the top of it : a kind of "who is No.1 on the list for a ST", thing.

It beggars belief that a supporters group should have to bring this sort of thing to the clubs attention , but here we are, and well done for doing so - as I said in my first post on this thread, it's a sensible campaign.

Now, as for my two key points of difference they are:

1. I don't believe there is a waiting list at all.
2. I don't believe the club really cares about it's relationship with our supporters.

Now, I don't doubt there is a list of names, random e-mail addresses, out of date mobile numbers and so on. but nothing as sophisticated as having all of that information in a correct, organised and structured way, and crucially nothing that says £10 deposit / registration fee paid.

Despite all the resources you believe the club to have ( I disagree on this point by the way, I believe the club to be laughably under resourced, and said so prior to the relocation), I don't blieve they have any such proper list or register.

As for them caring about relationships with supporters, the club do, we know as fact, employ people to read social media content, specifically this site for certain along with others.Given that is the case they have been reading about this issue with the possibly non existent list for a couple of years now, yet nothing has changed.

Furthermore, this websites readers called these owners out over the 5 year discount scheme they tried to renege on, and forced the club to back peddle. Yet, here we are half a decade later and there's another ticketing scam being pursued.

That moves the issue from one of poor competence to possibly one of a lack of integrity on the part of the club.

It would appear to me their only interest in the supporters is how to monetise their loyalty to the maximum, specifically to minimise any money that needs to be put in by the owners.

The cost of handling ticket sales will be self financing, with the booking fees etc covering the cost of all the wages of the staff and mailing costs etc - it's all part of the Brady "no operating costs" mantra.

In short their attitude towards the ST waiting list is systemic, deliberate and borne from a culture that treats supporters with utter contempt rather than mutual respect.

As evidence to back that up I cite the fact you are writing to Jake Heath, post boy, rather than the one single person who we all know could resolve this within30 seconds of being "engaged".

Hats off to you for trying, I hope you succeed but I fear it's the culture that needs addressing as well as the policies and general incompetence, and that means regime change.

The clubs relationship with supporters is dreadful, they continue to fight battles over the silliest things, issues that can be easily fixed, in the bizarre belief there is a point in the future they can declare a victory.

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ironhammer58
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Re: Season Ticket waiting list.

Post by ironhammer58 » Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:09 pm

Mr Pink Parlermo, you speak with an eloquence i could only dream to replicate.
Therefore in my most educated effort i would like to add my threepence worth.
They are a bunch of lying, uncaring , money grabbing c***s.
I know, i’m a shakespeare in wolfs clothing, but my heart is in the right place :lol:

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