How far ahead should we be planning?

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ironilunga
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How far ahead should we be planning?

Post by ironilunga » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:15 am

I was listening to an interview recently where it was suggested that Leicester City are a very well oiled machine in terms of forward planning for departures and targeting replacements. They have virtually dismantled/sold their title winning side and replaced it with another champions league contending team.

So how far forward should West Ham be projecting? Should we already have replacements identified for Pellegrini, coaching staff and key players?

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chelmsfordhammer91
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Re: How far ahead should we be planning?

Post by chelmsfordhammer91 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:26 am

3 years for getting in first teamers and around 5 years for bringing in youth players.

I think anything longer than that is just so unpredictable.

If Pellegrini was ten years younger then I would let him have the best part of a decade to build a squad as he sees fit, based on what I have seen from him and his staff already.

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Re: How far ahead should we be planning?

Post by Wilko1304 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:29 am

We should always have an idea of who we could be interested in in every position, including manager. Shortlists all over - shortlists of type of player within in it too.

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rudekid
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Re: How far ahead should we be planning?

Post by rudekid » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:55 am

I think it's difficult to plan that far ahead. When we had Moyes, Pellegrini was already lined up and in contact so he was probably helping to identify targets at that point. I think from a management perspective we should be looking to identify a replacement well ahead of time but first team players are pretty hard to predict.

On the academy side, consistency is key. My son has played at a few places, and where manager turnover is high then the youth policy changes constantly with different managers. QPR was an absolute **** show... I'm an advocate in the director of football to manage stuff like this so there's a modicum of consistency and have the manager just look after first team coaching / management / player recruitment....

In terms of planning ahead - I remember hearing about West Brom's financial planning and they budget based on worst case scenario (back to back relegation). All contracts account for this scenario so they can offload the big earners in a crisis and give themselves a chance of bouncing back....

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S-H
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Re: How far ahead should we be planning?

Post by S-H » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:03 am

We can't plan ahead with this lot in charge, surely?

We need consistent investment, to become consistent, if we aren't consistent then how far can we plan ahead, realistically?

For argument’s sake, say we finish 6th this season but fail to invest/build on that in the summer, and lose a key player, then finish 15th that season, what would be the plan for the following season, avoiding relegation or trying to finish top half?

Whenever it seems we might take a step forward, we usually take two steps back.

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sendô
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Re: How far ahead should we be planning?

Post by sendô » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:10 am

Alex Ferguson was the master of this. How many teams did he build and dismantle?

The reality is with each player you need to be able to look long term at their replacement. Will it be next year? Or will it be 5 years?

These days, this ain't really the job of the manager, it's more one for the DoF.

Of course, a key part for us the last couple of years is that we're generally buying players in their early/mid twenties who can play for us for a few years, rather than journeymen in their mid thirties whose careers are as good as over.

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Doc H Ball
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Re: How far ahead should we be planning?

Post by Doc H Ball » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:13 am

I’m normally relieved if by about 7.30pm I’ve heard nothing.

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ironilunga
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Re: How far ahead should we be planning?

Post by ironilunga » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:23 am

sendô wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:10 am
These days, this ain't really the job of the manager, it's more one for the DoF.
Yep, Brendan Rodgers has little or nothing to do with recruitment at Leicester and rather is more in a coaching role.

I think there is real merit in having a permanent and fixed scouting/recruitment team which can supply players to what is an inevitably changing head coach.

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Re: How far ahead should we be planning?

Post by MKD » Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:24 pm

rudekid wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:55 am


On the academy side, consistency is key. My son has played at a few places, and where manager turnover is high then the youth policy changes constantly with different managers. QPR was an absolute **** show... I'm an advocate in the director of football to manage stuff like this so there's a modicum of consistency and have the manager just look after first team coaching / management / player recruitment....
I was talking to someone recently that works with an ex-chelsea director who now works in sports culture and management. The new way of thinking, not just in football but in worldwide sport (they work with lots of top clubs across the globe), is to have a culture and direction which is bred throughout the club, the manager is replaceable and the person or people in the frame are known long before the manager leaves. This happens throughout the staff and playing staff, it is being seen at places like Leicester with their playing staff, and Southampton to a certain extent (though it seems to have be going wrong a bit of late). They seem to have a list of people that fit the positions and more importantly the club culture and vision for positions both on and off the pitch.

It runs higher than a DoF it is the board that needs to manage this, not the manager or anyone that is likely to be replaced in 3, 4 or 5 years. The culture needs to be ingrained in the club from top to bottom. It is something that I can't see happening with West Ham any time soon, I am not a board basher but the board seem to fly by the seat of their pants a fair bet and don't really have a direction or culture for the club. the change from Allerdyce to mootings of Rafa and ending up with Bilic really sums up how there is no real direction or culture. Man United are a fine example of this being all wrong, though the Solskjaer appointment seemed to have made a bit of a move to address it a little.

We should be planning for tomorrow, next week, month, year, decade and beyond, to secure our club's culture and direction. This would almost certainly change as new owners came in, but that is to go in the direction that they want to go in. The older model of get the right manager in everything else will follow is all well and good, until someone poaches your manager and you end up with a club that doesn't fit the new manager's direction and you have to change everything from top to bottom - it is destined to fail - just like Man United post Ferguson.

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Re: How far ahead should we be planning?

Post by iLoveLasagne » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:17 pm

MKD wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:24 pm
I was talking to someone recently that works with an ex-chelsea director who now works in sports culture and management. The new way of thinking, not just in football but in worldwide sport (they work with lots of top clubs across the globe), is to have a culture and direction which is bred throughout the club, the manager is replaceable and the person or people in the frame are known long before the manager leaves. This happens throughout the staff and playing staff, it is being seen at places like Leicester with their playing staff, and Southampton to a certain extent (though it seems to have be going wrong a bit of late). They seem to have a list of people that fit the positions and more importantly the club culture and vision for positions both on and off the pitch.

It runs higher than a DoF it is the board that needs to manage this, not the manager or anyone that is likely to be replaced in 3, 4 or 5 years. The culture needs to be ingrained in the club from top to bottom. It is something that I can't see happening with West Ham any time soon, I am not a board basher but the board seem to fly by the seat of their pants a fair bet and don't really have a direction or culture for the club. the change from Allerdyce to mootings of Rafa and ending up with Bilic really sums up how there is no real direction or culture. Man United are a fine example of this being all wrong, though the Solskjaer appointment seemed to have made a bit of a move to address it a little.

We should be planning for tomorrow, next week, month, year, decade and beyond, to secure our club's culture and direction. This would almost certainly change as new owners came in, but that is to go in the direction that they want to go in. The older model of get the right manager in everything else will follow is all well and good, until someone poaches your manager and you end up with a club that doesn't fit the new manager's direction and you have to change everything from top to bottom - it is destined to fail - just like Man United post Ferguson.
I used to think that Swansea were the pinnacle of this structure with a philosophy.But change is inevitable. With each change the philosophy becomes slightly diluted. Take a look at Barce's reinventions in recent years. Ajax might be the most consistent club in terms of keeping their beliefs, Style and philosophy.

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SammyLeeWasOffside
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Re: How far ahead should we be planning?

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:21 pm

In theory this long term, the manager etc don't really matter, plan seems to make sense but it doesn't last in the heat of things not working out r opportunity beckoning. Big clubs need success and when push comes to shove smaller ones will do anything to survive.

There will always come a point where philosophy jars with expectations. Look at Spurs, everyone said Levys plan was the way to follow but now they are at a point where the buy young/sell on system needs to meet ready now investment or they will have to change manager and reduce fans expectation. Long term philosophy is good but every club will face a moment when sticking to it will potentially cause harm.

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Re: How far ahead should we be planning?

Post by MKD » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:47 pm

iLoveLasagne wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:17 pm
I used to think that Swansea were the pinnacle of this structure with a philosophy.But change is inevitable. With each change the philosophy becomes slightly diluted. Take a look at Barce's reinventions in recent years. Ajax might be the most consistent club in terms of keeping their beliefs, Style and philosophy.
is the issue with swansea not that they sold a large, controlling, chunk to Americans that did not continue with culture that was there before them?

Ajax have had a consistent philosophy and culture it is ingrained in the club, even through tough times they don't tend to deviate from it and always seem to have the direction at the heart of what they do. you are right, they seem to be one of the only clubs that have it. Was it not Cruyff that took that Culture to Barcelona and made it happen there? They haven't stuck with it as time has progressed though and things have been changing more recently.

Every club as a (insert name here) way, that they claim embodies the club, but it only embodies the club to the fans close to the club. The (insert name here) way is a collection of small things that have somehow transcended years and eras but are not really prominent to the outside world. Ajax is the exception I think, most football fans around europe can see what they stand for as a club, culturally.

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Re: How far ahead should we be planning?

Post by MKD » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:59 pm

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:21 pm
In theory this long term, the manager etc don't really matter, plan seems to make sense but it doesn't last in the heat of things not working out r opportunity beckoning. Big clubs need success and when push comes to shove smaller ones will do anything to survive.

There will always come a point where philosophy jars with expectations. Look at Spurs, everyone said Levys plan was the way to follow but now they are at a point where the buy young/sell on system needs to meet ready now investment or they will have to change manager and reduce fans expectation. Long term philosophy is good but every club will face a moment when sticking to it will potentially cause harm.
Culture and philosophy isn't about results, it is about how the club is run and how everything fits together. It is about getting the right person in and having the right person that fits the bill for the club. Getting this right in the managerial position is key and then things should follow suit. Man United have had a succession of top managers that haven't fit to a culture or philosophy, maybe because they don't have one, other than fergie's legacy.

Culture and philosophy create a framework, the people actually deliver the results within the framework and getting the right people that fit within the philosophy and culture can deliver success and failure.

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iLoveLasagne
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Re: How far ahead should we be planning?

Post by iLoveLasagne » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:03 pm

They sacked Monk, replaced with caretaker Curtis and then hired Guidolin before then Americans came and hired Bradley who was himself replaced by Paul Clement after 2 months. Too complacent? Too desperate to avoid relegation leading to continual panic? They were lucky things had clicked previously? They found Michu, Bony and Sigurdsson but failed after that. Sometimes it is just one element papering over the weakness of everything else.

If a structure and philosophy doesn't find success, it to is disposable in the end.

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Universidad-de-Chile
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Re: How far ahead should we be planning?

Post by Universidad-de-Chile » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:57 pm

In theory, its a very good idea...

But, playing Hells advocat, I doubt its works always...

I mean, if Puel would have brought them to Championship, would they have still invested so much money in the team and could have retained their best players then???

Every such a proyect is based on the assumption that your team stay in the PL this 5 needed year...

And, as nobody can grant you that, its upon to have good and patient owners who put faith, PASSION and have a long term view of this endeavour.. whats its actually the less popular way of thinking by invesment people.

But, its a global problem, that you meet everywhere.. The stupid short term view/aim to get the most profit in the shortest possible blink of time... and even worst, very short govermant periods everywhere, too tiny managers time contract, etc.. So, who can change something at all in such a dwarf time window, (and) if the new arraving managers or authorities comes erasing all the work done too and begining from zero??? You need some better communication there (to use the experiemce and work done by the previous managers there), more long term (over)view and lead through a whole PROCESS to get somewhere with the whole plans and goals...
Last edited by Universidad-de-Chile on Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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warp
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Re: How far ahead should we be planning?

Post by warp » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:00 pm

ironilunga wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:15 am
How far ahead should we be planning?
breakfast.

mushy
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Re: How far ahead should we be planning?

Post by mushy » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:13 pm

If your owners intend to stick around then surely they will have a long term 10 years plus plan.
If they intend to sell up and cash in in four years time then that's the absolute maximum that will be planned for.
Ours are in the latters camp.

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Re: How far ahead should we be planning?

Post by Universidad-de-Chile » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:19 pm

Exactly, @mushy.. thats the main point.

+ 2

YorksHammer
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Re: How far ahead should we be planning?

Post by YorksHammer » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:21 pm

We should always be planning for what's next, whether that's the player that replaces a member of the team, a managerial change, a backroom staff change, or even a training ground upgrade.

The less disruption caused by any of the above due to forward thinking, the better.

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Re: How far ahead should we be planning?

Post by hammerman11 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:23 pm

I thought sully had a 7 year plan for CL football around 2019 ?

we should be looking to replace ageing and useless players. pelle got rid of a lot last summer but will need replacements for

sanchez zabaleta Snodgrass cresswell reid ogbonna noble

nothing left to sell so sully has to dig deep next summer !

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