David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

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bubbles1966
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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by bubbles1966 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:02 pm

brothernero wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:42 pm
I asked this yesterday and I want to ask it again, now many have calmed down after yesterdays latest 4-1 drubbing.

If Moyes keeps us up, is he the right man to push us forward. Or do we keep him and just aim for 17th+ each year.

If We do get relegated will he be the right man for a promotion push, if we do then fail first time around, do we still stick with him.

Or and this is a scary thought, if he does keep us up and we once again part ways and look elsewhere, do we then go back for him a 3rd time when the owners have once again balled it right up.

Only at West Ham United. Next Level my Arse.
Let's strip it back a level.

These owners have now had Zola, Grant, Allardyce, Bilic, Moyes, Pellegrini and Moyes again - seven managers in a decade.

How many have we 'pushed on' under?

I suspect that four of them, with appropriate and consistent backing, could have got us top 8. They've done it elsewhere. Jeez - even Avram was a penalty kick away from winning the CL with the right backing and players.

This merry go round is all a game of distraction by the people who are really calling the shots and really making the mistakes.

People talking about Moyes' formation etc are missing the point that whether it's 4-4-2 or 5-3-1-1 or whatever - 35 year old Zabaleta starts, Noble starts, Cresswell almost certainly starts etc.

There are positions in this team that are criminally under-invested.

Whilst people are singling out players and bickering about managers, the real culprits who direct it all are avoiding head-on scrutiny.
Last edited by bubbles1966 on Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by pezza20 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:05 pm

Let's be frank, Pelle had lost the dressing room, right bloke wrong time.

Moyes has come in, steadied the ship for 3 games then as per the Everton and Burnley games we see our achilles heal.

Moyes is the only manager who would have taken the job I suspect, so credit him for looking at the appalling team morale, completely unbalanced squad and now a squad berift of its best players due to injury, then I have some sympathy.

Issue I have is Moyes first time around did a decent job again with an unbalances squad and one devoid of confidence and kept us up comfortably with 2 games to spare. Because he pointed out some basic home truths the dildos got rid, spent some money pretending to be big boys, then reverted to type whilst also sanctioning mass sales of players, dropping the wage bill but also decimating the squad numbers.

Moyes needs a few fresh faces in to ensure we pick up enough points, which recent performances have suggested they might (if you take away last night)

Moyes may be dull, uninspiring etc but he does generally get the team working harder and brings about a fair bit of organisation, and we may benefit from his ability to build the club from top to bottom if given time. Something tells me he won't.

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Graza
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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Graza » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:10 pm

bubbles1966 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:02 pm
Let's strip it back a level.

These owners have now had Zola, Grant, Allardyce, Bilic, Moyes, Pellegrini and Moyes again - seven managers in a decade.

How many have we 'pushed on' under?

I suspect that four of them, with appropriate and consistent backing, could have got us top 8. They've done it elsewhere. Jeez - even Avram was a penalty kick away from winning the CL with the right backing and players.
I think only 2 could have pushed us on in the right way from that lot. Zola was out of his depth, Grant was dining out on someone else's team, BFS would have us further up the league but the football would still be depressing and ****, Billic needed money in the 2016 window to plug the holes in the team and go again, he didn't get it that year or the year after, Moyes I don't think would ever move us on as we'd like and Pellers needed money to spend this summer gone and all that was available was a couple of coppers and a squad stripped to save wages.
bubbles1966 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:02 pm
This merry go round is all a game of distraction by the people who are really calling the shots and really making the mistakes.

...

There are positions in this team that are criminally under-invested.
I agree and would add not positions, the whole club is under invested, (I'm repeating myself from the previous page but never mind) youth team, scouting, training facilities, coaching staff, stadium, playing staff, ticket office staff, on and on. You name it they've stripped it back to the bones and sucked out the ****ing marrow.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Ironing Board » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:14 pm

Graza wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:10 pm
I think only 2 could have pushed us on in the right way from that lot. Zola was out of his depth, Grant was dining out on someone else's team, BFS would have us further up the league but the football would still be depressing and ****, Billic needed money in the 2016 window to plug the holes in the team and go again, he didn't get it that year or the year after, Moyes I don't think would ever move us on as we'd like and Pellers needed money to spend this summer gone and all that was available was a couple of coppers and a squad stripped to save wages.


I agree and would add not positions, the whole club is under invested, (I'm repeating myself from the previous page but never mind) youth team, scouting, training facilities, coaching staff, stadium, playing staff, ticket office staff, on and on. You name it they've stripped it back to the bones and sucked out the ****ing marrow.
I still don’t get how Moyes couldn’t push us on “as we’d like.” If he got us where he got Everton it would be a massive improvement. Everton have also gone backwards since he left, despite spending half a billion on players.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Graza » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:19 pm

Ironing Board wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:57 pm
Perhaps. But I still think Pellers was basically just taking the job to feather his nest after his poor spell in China. I mean, Ancelotti is in a different league to Pellers - a genuine all-time great manager.
He took a job he was offered and paid handsomely for. I think his enthusiasm died over the summer when he realised he wouldn't be backed properly a second time. I think he knew the squad was ****ed with all the outgoings and waited to be sacked to secure his money. I don't have to like it but I don't blame him.

I don't rate Ancelotti in that bracket. He had a couple of smaller jobs before the Milan one that really made his name but that Milan team was primed for it. He didn't rebuild them or make them, he kept them rolling and got a tune out of them, and thing with his run at Real Madrid. If he can push Everton to anything like those heights without spending half a billion then maybe, but he has tended to perform as expected by the club's he's been managing rather than doing something special. Look at Ranieri at Leicester, that was special.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Ironing Board » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:21 pm

Graza wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:19 pm
He took a job he was offered and paid handsomely for. I think his enthusiasm died over the summer when he realised he wouldn't be backed properly a second time. I think he knew the squad was ****ed with all the outgoings and waited to be sacked to secure his money. I don't have to like it but I don't blame him.

I don't rate Ancelotti in that bracket. He had a couple of smaller jobs before the Milan one that really made his name but that Milan team was primed for it. He didn't rebuild them or make them, he kept them rolling and got a tune out of them, and thing with his run at Real Madrid. If he can push Everton to anything like those heights without spending half a billion then maybe, but he has tended to perform as expected by the club's he's been managing rather than doing something special. Look at Ranieri at Leicester, that was special.
Yeah right. So him and his hand-picked director of football had nothing to do with this summer’s shambolic transfer window? The fact is, our team would function well enough in a slower paced technical league such as La Liga, but the Premier League is faster and more physical. He built a team that would he fine in the environment he is accustomed to. His Man City team were the same and continually regressed under his watch after the Mancini defensive discipline was eroded.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Graza » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:23 pm

Ironing Board wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:14 pm
I still don’t get how Moyes couldn’t push us on “as we’d like.” If he got us where he got Everton it would be a massive improvement. Everton have also gone backwards since he left, despite spending half a billion on players.
League position perhaps. But he wouldn't be able to with these owners. The top 6 are cemented by their spending, which is aided by their league position.

The football would also be questionable, if I wanted to be 10th to 7th and watch **** football I'd have wanted BFS to stay.

None of this equates to me thinking he's a **** manager, he isn't. He is limited, he is risk averse and he is boring as f***. None of that makes him "bad". I just don't want to pay a grand a year to watch it.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Ironing Board » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:25 pm

Graza wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:19 pm
He took a job he was offered and paid handsomely for. I think his enthusiasm died over the summer when he realised he wouldn't be backed properly a second time. I think he knew the squad was ****ed with all the outgoings and waited to be sacked to secure his money. I don't have to like it but I don't blame him.

I don't rate Ancelotti in that bracket. He had a couple of smaller jobs before the Milan one that really made his name but that Milan team was primed for it. He didn't rebuild them or make them, he kept them rolling and got a tune out of them, and thing with his run at Real Madrid. If he can push Everton to anything like those heights without spending half a billion then maybe, but he has tended to perform as expected by the club's he's been managing rather than doing something special. Look at Ranieri at Leicester, that was special.
If you don’t rate a guy who has won almost every big league as well as three Champions Leagues then who do you rate? He is even more successful than Jose Mourinho Rafa Benitez or Alex Ferguson in the Champions League!

He is a giant in management who was groomed by Sacchi!

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Turns to Stone » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:27 pm

Ironing Board wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:14 pm
I still don’t get how Moyes couldn’t push us on “as we’d like.” If he got us where he got Everton it would be a massive improvement. Everton have also gone backwards since he left, despite spending half a billion on players.
Because whatever credit he once had in football has now disappeared.

He has no stroke over the owners, the players, the fans. He’s not here because we headhunted the very best man for the job. He’s here because he’s cheap and willing. The players will know that just as much as the fans. They’ve chucked their chips in. The owners don’t give a f*** as they’ve made billions out of us already.

Moyes is nothing. Nothing to the owners, nothing to the players and nothing to the fans. The second he took the job he showed how desperate he was, and once he started talking about the ‘class’ of the owners, well. He will get ****ed over by the owners and the players will down tools (as they have for every other manager we’ve had in the last 10 years) because leadership starts at the top.

And if the midget in the stupid hat and the velvet jacket is only here for the money, and the bitch in the corner office acts like she hates the club, then why the f*** should the manager or the players give a ****? Because I can tell you, that’s what Pellegrini figured out, and it’s what Bilic figured out and it’s even what Allardyce and his massive f***-off swede eventually figured out. And they all stopped giving a ****...

...just like the players have, and just like we have.

And that’s why Moyes won’t work out. Regardless of hw desperate you are for him to succeed.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Croydon » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:30 pm

He's just a shitter Allardyce in my opinion.

Sets up to draw.

But he said he's a winner, so I will give him another shot.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Ironing Board » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:32 pm

Turns to Stone wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:27 pm
Because whatever credit he once had in football has now disappeared.

He has no stroke over the owners, the players, the fans. He’s not here because we headhunted the very best man for the job. He’s here because he’s cheap and willing. The players will know that just as much as the fans. They’ve chucked their chips in. The owners don’t give a **** as they’ve made billions out of us already. Moyes is nothing. Nothing to the owners, nothing to the players and nothing to the fans. The second he took the job he showed how desperate he was, and once he started talk king about the ‘class’ of the owners, well. He will get fickle£ over by the owners and the plaŷers will down tools (as they have for every other manager we’ve had in the last 10 years) because leadership starts at the top. And if the midget in the stupid hat and the velvet jacket is only here for the money, and the bitch in the corner office acts like she hates the club, then why the **** should the manager or the players give a ****? Because I can tell you, that’s what Pellegrini figured out, and it’s what Bilic figured out and it’s even what Allardyce and his massive f***-off swede figured out. And they all stopped giving a ****...

...just like the players have, and just like we have.

And that’s why Moyes won’t work out. Regardless of hw desperate you are for him to succeed.
That’s just an excuse for not giving your best. Managers have almost always had to put up with bad owners going back to the beginning of time. Jock Stein and his players hated the board at Celtic, but that did not stop them being stunningly successful.

All you need is some hardworking players and a manager who is happy to act as a buffer between the players and the idiots running the show.

Man, even Mr Everton Howard Kendall walked out on that club due the board not giving him the support he wanted, but that did not stop him having a lot of success before that.

The players and the manager should be a team that are all pulling in the same direction.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Graza » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:32 pm

Ironing Board wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:21 pm
Yeah right. So him and his hand-picked director of football had nothing to do with this summer’s shambolic transfer window? The fact is, our team would function well enough in a slower paced technical league such as La Liga, but the Premier League is faster and more physical. He built a team that would he fine in the environment he is accustomed to. His Man City team were the same and continually regressed under his watch after the Mancini defensive discipline was eroded.
Well the fact he was allowed to bring in his own DoF is fundamental to the assertion that our owners don't know what they are doing but that's a different conversation.

The fact is we lost 4 strikers, one for free, 2 for trivial sums and one for decent money which left us with a winger who liked to play in the middle. We lost a backup keeper so good he's played a number of games for the team walking away with the league but weren't allowed to bring in a replacement on anything like the same money (reports are that Roberto and Martin are on combined less). The rest of the squad had options gutted out of it all to trim the wage bill. We were then left with a net spend of 20m (and not allowed to us the same wages as before). Which is going backwards money in this league. Yes we have a pace problem, last season that was papered over by Arnie and Antonio, at least one of whom was normally fit. This season we have only Antonio and he's been less fit than usual. This needed addressing, but how you do that with no money? When the academy has been gutted to save a few coppers as well and the best graduate has been sent on loan...

The issues at Man City were the same as here, the writing was on the wall and he stopped trying, city appointed his replacement halfway through the season so he downed tools, our squad was gutted and obviously going to struggle so he downed tools.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Beavis Danzig » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:35 pm

there's a certain wonderful dualism between moyes talking about how classy the owners are and how the supporters should be careful what they wish for, and then looking like a freshly necromanced zombie in the post match interview after an absolute hiding saying how much we need players but might not get them.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Faithless » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:36 pm

brothernero wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:42 pm
If Moyes keeps us up, is he the right man to push us forward. Or do we keep him and just aim for 17th+ each year.

If We do get relegated will he be the right man for a promotion push, if we do then fail first time around, do we still stick with him.

Or and this is a scary thought, if he does keep us up and we once again part ways and look elsewhere, do we then go back for him a 3rd time when the owners have once again balled it right up.

Only at West Ham United. Next Level my Arse.
The problem as I see is that the answer to your questions is all by the by. None of it matters. Will he get the backing any Manager needs to achieve any of the targets being set?

If the current window and previous windows under previous manager's is anything to go by then the answer is no, the only exception could be to gain promotion as they did with Allardyce.

Whoever we've had they've failed to provide the funds and players required to play the way the manager wants.

I know this is the Moyes thread and yes he is culpable for performances and tactics etc but until the board either go or they simply realise that David Sullivan is not a DoF, Chief Scout, Contract Negotiator et al and put a footballing structure in place nothing will chage.

If Sully did grasp this he'd actually be able to enjoy owning the club as with just a modicum sensible planning we'd be consistently top 10 or there abouts and he'd still be taking it in.
Last edited by Faithless on Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Graza » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:36 pm

Ironing Board wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:25 pm
If you don’t rate a guy who has won almost every big league as well as three Champions Leagues then who do you rate? He is even more successful than Jose Mourinho Rafa Benitez or Alex Ferguson in the Champions League!

He is a giant in management who was groomed by Sacchi!
Someone who wins the league with the biggest, best funded team with the best squad isn't necessarily the best manager. As I say if he does it with Everton, given that Man City and Liverpool are going to keep spending too then maybe. But saying I don't rate him as one of the "all time greats" doesn't mean I don't rate him as a manager.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Ironing Board » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:40 pm

Graza wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:32 pm

The issues at Man City were the same as here, the writing was on the wall and he stopped trying, city appointed his replacement halfway through the season so he downed tools, our squad was gutted and obviously going to struggle so he downed tools.
Well he should have resigned then and given someone the opportunity to save the club, rather than willfully dragging us to our knees to secure a big fat cheque for himself.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Turns to Stone » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:41 pm

Ironing Board wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:32 pm
That’s just an excuse for not giving your best. Managers have almost always had to put up with bad owners going back to the beginning of time. Jock Stein and his players hated the board at Celtic, but that did not stop them being stunningly successful.

All you need is some hardworking players and a manager who is happy to act as a buffer between the players and the idiots running the show.

Man, even Mr Everton Howard Kendall walked out on that club due the board not giving him the support he wanted, but that did not stop him having a lot of success before that.

The players and the manager should be a team that are all pulling in the same direction.
But Jock Stein was at the top of his game. David Moyes WAS at the top of his game. Now he’s onto his 4th club since he left Everton and each spell has been worse than the list. We’ve brought in a manager who’s last full season ended in relegation. Why not try and hire someone who has actually done something good in the last 10 years?

He is on the wane and his hiring tells the fans and more importantly the players that the bosses are completely out of touch and happy to carry on letting them phone it in.

Personally, I like Moyes. Professionally, he’s been mediocre now for longer than he was successful. If I was recruiting for my business, and was the 18th richest company in my field, he wouldn’t get near the shortlist.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by HammerAl » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:41 pm

Why DOES IB adore Moyes so much?

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by sxreject1 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:46 pm

I hate that pearly white tooth **** and hope we beat them vin dipping bastards

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Graza » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:46 pm

Faithless wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:36 pm
The problem as I see is that the answer to your questions is all by the by. None of it matters. Will he get the backing any Manager needs to achieve any of the targets being set?
Yup. I said it early on when it was obvious that it was going to be Moyes. I don't want Moyes, but it ultimately doesn't matter when those skimming off the top don't give a f*** and won't put hand in pocket.

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