David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

[Billydinho]

Often required in a relegation battle. The harsh reality is we are **** and can only give a good game to other sides equally as **** as us.

He took over in November last time didn't he?

Hardly a relegation battle at that point. We weren't even in the bottom three were we?

[Pango]

Moyes was heavily criticized for how the side was put out and what they delivered v West Brom.

What was your take of that game ?

My brief take as I have a full time job was that it was a poor performance. But as a seasoned WHU fan I have seen many worse.

He didn't have the opportunity to put out the team he wanted nor the shape he wanted. With the right players available I believe he would have gone 3 5 2 with Anderson just behind Haller. But unfortunately we had our best players out injured or not 100% fit. Take them out of our team and you have a very average one paced outfit that are probably championship level.

Under the scheme of things I wast that bothered about this result and saw it coming anyway.

All roads have lead to Brighton at home for a while which is why you didn't see Antonio last night at all.

Why ... what was yours then ?

[Cellar-door]

I think you can take a balanced approach to Moyes.

You can recognize that he was very successful at Everton, and a significant portion of that success was through his efforts.

You can also recognize that the league is wildly different from what it was then, and that he hasn't had much success in the intervening years.

Moyes isn't a terrible manager, but... I don't know that I think he's a good one. Far too often his strategy is... well lets not give up too many goals and we'll figure out the scoring later. That approach worked a decade ago when you might hold a draw against the big sides, and the smaller sides couldn't score against a packed in defense.

I don't think it works with any consistency now. Too many teams can score goals, the depth of the league is too good, you have to score to survive. Looking at the last 9 relegated sides... 8 of the 9 were in the bottom 3 in goals for their relegation season. A flip side in Bournemouth, who have had a terrible defense every year in the PL, but they haven't really flirted with relegation because they score. Now come to this year, bottom 4 in goals and a relegation favorite.

Conservatism doesn't pay in the premier league anymore, you can be defensive and counter, but only if you have a plan for how you'll score.

[Claret & Blue World]

Moyes took his time to find his feet at Everton but once he did his record was very impressive.

Between the 2006/07 season and 2012/13 when he left Everton they finished 6th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 7th, 7th & 6th respectively, their goal difference was positive each season, 6 out of the 7 seasons the goal difference was positive by double figures.

Although this is then and not now, you can't call Moyes a bad manager, these are facts, check it out for yourself https://www.premierleague.com/tables?co=1&se=-1&ha=-1

Ill give you a moment to upload all the clips on youtube of hordes of everton fans turning up at the club offices demanding his reappointment.


Wait, whats that ? None you say ?

[Claret & Blue World]

My brief take as I have a full time job was that it was a poor performance. But as a seasoned WHU fan I have seen many worse.

He didn't have the opportunity to put out the team he wanted nor the shape he wanted. With the right players available I believe he would have gone 3 5 2 with Anderson just behind Haller. But unfortunately we had our best players out injured or not 100% fit. Take them out of our team and you have a very average one paced outfit that are probably championship level.

Under the scheme of things I wast that bothered about this result and saw it coming anyway.

All roads have lead to Brighton at home for a while which is why you didn't see Antonio last night at all.

Why ... what was yours then ?

I see Moyes and I see a Manager that has not evolved with the game.
I see his management in games like that and Leicester and I see a Manager without a plan B, let alone C. For reference Klopp post Wolves game recently said he changed a few things during the game with the same personnel to find a way. Nigel Pearson said the same thing v I believe Wolves as well
I see a Manager that has lost his ability to motivate his players (see his time at Sunderland/Sociedad/Utd)

Fair points ?

[il_martello_di_genovesi]

He managed us before, wrote off games he didn't think he could win and ground out ones he did.

His losses were dispicable and his wins weren’t good enough?

[Liam]

Moyes took his time to find his feet at Everton but once he did his record was very impressive.

Between the 2006/07 season and 2012/13 when he left Everton they finished 6th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 7th, 7th & 6th respectively, their goal difference was positive each season, 6 out of the 7 seasons the goal difference was positive by double figures.

Although this is then and not now, you can't call Moyes a bad manager, these are facts, check it out for yourself https://www.premierleague.com/tables?co=1&se=-1&ha=-1

As you say, Moyes left Everton in 2013, and that was the last time he had any kind of success as a manager. I still can't understand how he has managed to get the gig.

I couldn't call Moyes in 2013 a bad manager, I can call Moyes a terrible manager in 2020. Likewise Kevin Nolan was our top scorer in 2012/13 but we'd be in trouble if we were relying on him now. Anyway this argument is getting repetitive, we're stuck with him and we have to hope we have enough in the squad by the end of tomorrow for us to get to the end of the season with our PL status in tact. Then its a case of fingers crossed we can bin him and eventually GSB.

[VeniceHammer]

if, as it seems, we won't sign anyone else, I sincerely hope he walks even before saturday.

[Knighter10WHU]

He took over in November last time didn't he?

Hardly a relegation battle at that point. We weren't even in the bottom three were we?

We were 3 points above the relegation zone if I remember rightly but a sinking ship more importantly, we had only won 2 games out of the first 11 in the league. Moyes came in and had a decent December and January.

[Liam]

We were 3 points above the relegation zone if I remember rightly but a sinking ship more importantly, we had only won 2 games out of the first 11 in the league. Moyes came in and had a decent December and January.

We'd been shafted by not playing at home until mid sept as well because of the athletics.

[YorksHammer]

Moyes took his time to find his feet at Everton but once he did his record was very impressive.

Between the 2006/07 season and 2012/13 when he left Everton they finished 6th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 7th, 7th & 6th respectively, their goal difference was positive each season, 6 out of the 7 seasons the goal difference was positive by double figures.

Although this is then and not now, you can't call Moyes a bad manager, these are facts, check it out for yourself https://www.premierleague.com/tables?co=1&se=-1&ha=-1

I don't think you can invoke statistics from about a decade ago to apply to whether someone is good now - manager or player.

Truth is David Moyes hasn't had a job where his win percentage has been over 30% since he left Man United in 2014, has been relegated from the Premier League once, had a very average time in Spain, and then an average time managing us. He has, since being appointed our manager, looked like he has no idea how he wants us to set up, what type of football he wants us to play, and how to get the best out of the players he has.

I hope we survive the season, and I hope he finally sorts this on pitch mess out. But the least I'd expect from him after a month in the job is a clear strategy for how he's going to turn it around - and that's not apparent. Sure, there are numerous structural issues within the club, from board room to training ground to scouting system, but on the pitch we don't look more organised, we don't look more up for it, and we don't look like we're going to improve. Those are three things that Moyes should be held to account for.

[Ding]

Having an unbalanced side is not Moyes’ fault. That this unbalanced side was coached to play “like a big team” by a well known attacking coach yet played for a substantial part of this season the most undisciplined, clueless, unstructured turgid football is not Moyes’s fault. That we have one scout and joke of a training facility is not Moyes fault. That half the squad is injured is not his fault. That our transfer policy has resembled a crab shoot for years is not his fault either.

People who think our current squad is capable of playing teams off the park by shoutIng “attack attack attack like a big ****ing team” don’t have far to look if they needed reminder of the disinterested quality of football we played just before he arrived. At least now we are seeing structure, form and effort. However much one dislike Moyes, there is no way anyone can argue the team didn’t try last night. I saw effort but I also saw bad breaks against the world club champions. If not for a shitty ref, dodgy VAR, a Noble / Masuaku f*** up and some superb goalkeeping, we might well have taken something.

The bloke was hired to battle against relegation. Twice. The first time he succeeded with matches to spare. He has done enough to earn the present chance for that alone. So give him that.

Besides, I like him. He is not playing golf all week. He is working late and working best he can despite shitty circumstances. Its called fortitude. I like that in a man. I had thought that it was part of what constitute the West Ham way.

Perhaps I was mistaken.

[Ironing Board]

Having an unbalanced side is not Moyes’ fault. That this unbalanced side was coached to play “like a big team” by a well known attacking coach yet played for a substantial part of this season the most undisciplined, clueless, unstructured turgid football is not Moyes’s fault. That we have one scout and joke of a training facility is not Moyes fault. That half the squad is injured is not his fault. That our transfer policy has resembled a crab shoot for years is not his fault either.

People who think our current squad is capable of playing teams off the park by shoutIng “attack attack attack like a big ****ing team” don’t have far to look if they needed reminder of the disinterested quality of football we played just before he arrived. At least now we are seeing structure, form and effort. However much one dislike Moyes, there is no way anyone can argue the team didn’t try last night. I saw effort but I also saw bad breaks against the world club champions. If not for a shitty ref, dodgy VAR, a Noble / Masuaku **** up and some superb goalkeeping, we might well have taken something.

The bloke was hired to battle against relegation. Twice. The first time he succeeded with matches to spare. He has done enough to earn the present chance for that alone. So give him that.

Besides, I like him. He is not playing golf all week. He is working late and working best he can despite shitty circumstances. Its called fortitude. I like that in a man. I had thought that it was part of what constitute the West Ham way.

Perhaps I was mistaken.

Wouldn't compare them stylewise, but I think he has some of Ron Greenwood's work ethic and coaching-focused approach.

"Billy Bonds said that when he signed from Charlton, Greenwood talked about aspects that he had never considered, such as diversionary running and the creation and use of space.

"Greenwood stressed that football was a simple game and never used a blackboard. Every move was illustrated during training, initially at walking pace. He was so keen to educate that sometimes he had to be dragged off the field."

Moyes is also a tracksuit manager. If he can get the freedom to build a side and be less conservative then I think he will be a 'best of both worlds' appointment. Personally I don't like the DOF model, so for that reason alone I like having a gaffer who wants to be the boss.

[Het-Field]

Having an unbalanced side is not Moyes’ fault. That this unbalanced side was coached to play “like a big team” by a well known attacking coach yet played for a substantial part of this season the most undisciplined, clueless, unstructured turgid football is not Moyes’s fault. That we have one scout and joke of a training facility is not Moyes fault. That half the squad is injured is not his fault. That our transfer policy has resembled a crab shoot for years is not his fault either.

People who think our current squad is capable of playing teams off the park by shoutIng “attack attack attack like a big ****ing team” don’t have far to look if they needed reminder of the disinterested quality of football we played just before he arrived. At least now we are seeing structure, form and effort. However much one dislike Moyes, there is no way anyone can argue the team didn’t try last night. I saw effort but I also saw bad breaks against the world club champions. If not for a shitty ref, dodgy VAR, a Noble / Masuaku **** up and some superb goalkeeping, we might well have taken something.

The bloke was hired to battle against relegation. Twice. The first time he succeeded with matches to spare. He has done enough to earn the present chance for that alone. So give him that.

Besides, I like him. He is not playing golf all week. He is working late and working best he can despite shitty circumstances. Its called fortitude. I like that in a man. I had thought that it was part of what constitute the West Ham way.

Perhaps I was mistaken.

I will say that from the point of view of the paragraph third from bottom, the previous time Moyes was employed was different. First, he had his team in place, with Stuart Pearce. Second, he had a much more balanced squad l, even if it wasn’t one of world beaters. Third, he was about to get the best out of Arnautovic.

These factors don’t, or have not applied yet. The only similarity (and that might change in the next 36 hours), but he hasn’t essentially been given the tools he has to work with, with no tangible autonomy to make changes by way of bringing new players into the squad. We were banged to rights needing a new keeper, and then he was given his obligatory Champions League loan deal.

In 2017 he started off poorly, but then he grabbed a decent 1-0 win against Chelsea and moved on from there. Here, it all started well, but has gone seriously downhill since, with very little room to manoeuvre. Essentially, this a harder and different job, and the question will be, is Moyes the one to guide us through it?

[Knighter10WHU]

We'd been shafted by not playing at home until mid sept as well because of the athletics.

Good point. For what its worth I wouldn't have sacked Bilic, he had earned his right to try and dig us out of it and still had the players playing for him (see the cup win at Spurs in the midweek before the game he got sacked) and the majority of the fans behind him. I do think Moyes did a good job of getting us out of a bad situation at the time though.

[Ding]

Het-Field,

I agree. Much tougher this time.

Whether he will succeed time will tell. And that’s precisely the point I am making - that beyond a point, no one knows if a manager (or player) will work out in advance. I was convinced that Pellers would transform us last summer, like most of us. Perhaps it’s wishful thinking, but few can say his failure was not unexpected due to his track record.

Yet people are taking position on Moyes based on a mixed track record as though they are foolproof crystal balls. Fact is none of us know. No one knows. Not even Moyes - notwithstanding his success in 2017.

Amid this uncertainty what I am certain of is his character and hunger to succeed at the task at hand. I rather enjoy that he is fighting hard and wish him the best. He seems to at this moment encapsulate everything about West Ham. The trier giving it a go despite the **** storm and cynicism on four sides. He epitomises that one chance for an against the odds redemption.

That spirit has always been our club. If we lose this, then I guess Olympic West Ham has truly arrived, even amongst the heart and soul of the support base. You can safely count me out of that circus.

[Ironing Board]

Amid this uncertainty what I am certain of is his character and hunger to succeed at the task at hand. I rather enjoy that he is fighting hard and wish him the best. He seems to at this moment encapsulate everything about West Ham. The trier giving it a go despite the **** storm and cynicism on four sides. He epitomises that one chance for an against the odds redemption.

David Moyes is Rocky!

"His whole life was a million to one shot...." :lol:

[Ding]

[Depressed Hammer]

Good point. For what its worth I wouldn't have sacked Bilic, he had earned his right to try and dig us out of it and still had the players playing for him (see the cup win at Spurs in the midweek before the game he got sacked) and the majority of the fans behind him. I do think Moyes did a good job of getting us out of a bad situation at the time though.

We would have been relegated under Bilic. We were shipping goals all over the place. WBA put 4 past us.Players were unfit and Arnie was playing left wing and not firing. Sako wanted out and Caroll was always injured. It was a mess.

[Knighter10WHU]

We would have been relegated under Bilic. We were shipping goals all over the place. WBA put 4 past us.Players were unfit and Arnie was playing left wing and not firing. Sako wanted out and Caroll was always injured. It was a mess.

I expect we would've gone down under Slav, but I would have accepted that.

Bilic is the only manager I can really think back to and say I enjoyed him being the manager of the club. He played the right way, got the club and the fans and gave us some great players and moments in his time.