David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

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Crouchend_Hammer
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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:55 pm

:oops:
e17 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:12 pm
I would swap Zabaleta, Wilshere, Sanchez, Cresswell, Snodgrass, Ajetti and Lanzini for 6 months of Payet playing for us again.

I don’t even care if we’re supposed to hate him because of how he left. I just loved watching him play football for West Ham.
Absolutely no chance I would include Snodz in that deal.
He is one of the very few things worth savouring at the moment

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Colours never run » Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:20 am

steveyrockstar wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:47 pm
I saw this argument a few pages back and didn't respond. With both us and Sunderland, Moyes was plunged straight into relegation battles, after the seasons had started, with both clubs in freefall. Sunderland were even worse than us!

Is Moyes a bad, past-it manager, who plays dull, outdated football? Maybe.

Do his stats with us and Sunderland prove that he's a bad, past-it manager? Not for me, no.

The only thing that would prove that either way, in my mind, was if he had been given the job after his first stint with us and was had a 2nd season to start afresh. Or similarly, if he's managing us next season.

For me, everything else is hypothetical. I think Moyes did a very good job at Everton. I think he's had very tough roles since, but similarly, other than keeping us up last time round, his record since then isn't particularly good. That's all I can say.
But it's not just what he hasn't done with us and Sunderland, it also includes his time at Real Sociedad and Man Utd. You're having to go back something like 8 years ago the last time he did well for Everton and even then the football weren't easy on the eye and more about results. So for me, it's not at all hypothetical to question him as our manager for a 2nd time now, doing similar things to the last time he was our manager, following a very similar pattern dating way back to his Everton years.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by traxop » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:32 am

Colours never run wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:23 pm
I wish David Moyes would take a leaf out of Sajid Javids book today.. 'No self-respecting minister would accept the conditions offered by the prime minister today'.
You don't even need to stray into the world of politics. Does anyone else think there's a comparison to be made between the seasons that Hertha Berlin and West Ham are having?

Both capital clubs with history, both mid-table teams(last European season was 2017 for Hertha, ours was the post Payet season) that have failed this season and battling relegation. Both took to axing their Manager within the last couple of months before the winter window, but that's where the story diverges, Hertha subsequently went out and spent big, spending 70M in a bid to fight off relegation, and Jurgen klinsmann decided to quit 10 weeks after being appointed because he felt he didn't have the trust of the board.

Do we think Moyes trusts the board? Anyways, precedence has been set. There's no need to wait 6 months to walk away if the conditions aren't right.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by YorksHammer » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:44 am

steveyrockstar wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:47 pm
I saw this argument a few pages back and didn't respond. With both us and Sunderland, Moyes was plunged straight into relegation battles, after the seasons had started, with both clubs in freefall. Sunderland were even worse than us!

Is Moyes a bad, past-it manager, who plays dull, outdated football? Maybe.

Do his stats with us and Sunderland prove that he's a bad, past-it manager? Not for me, no.

The only thing that would prove that either way, in my mind, was if he had been given the job after his first stint with us and was had a 2nd season to start afresh. Or similarly, if he's managing us next season.

For me, everything else is hypothetical. I think Moyes did a very good job at Everton. I think he's had very tough roles since, but similarly, other than keeping us up last time round, his record since then isn't particularly good. That's all I can say.
He was at Sunderland for a full season, and pre-season, in 2016/17, after Sam got the England job. You're right though, they were bloody dire that season. And that was with Moyes in charge of a team that Big Sam had taken 1.16 ppg with - Moyes got them down to a 0.7 ppg.

But also (and part of my post I was sure I had written but must have deleted at some point) - that 0.9 point per game average slots him in between Ian Holloway and Steve Kean in the 'worst managers of the last decade' list. And that only includes managers with a full season's worth of games.

I, personally, didn't think he greatly improved us when he took over from Slav. I've never looked at the stats from that season before, but checking them now Slav got 1.29 ppg from the 14 matches he managed that season. Moyes got 1.19 ppg from 31.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by steveyrockstar » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:27 pm

I didn't realise Moyes managed Sunderland for a full season. They were truly abysmal though, and had been in decline for several seasons. Does anyone remember the Mick McCarthy reign from much earlier? Didn't poor Mick go through a season (or a massive part of it), without a single victory? For a long time, McCarthy had the worst Prem record ever by some distance! Boy they were bad :D

RE - Man Utd. Isn't it fair to say that every manager since Fergie has struggled though? Plus, when Fergie did finally depart, he actually left an unusually weak Man U squad (by their standards), making it a very, very difficult job for whoever came in.

That doesn't prove Moyes is a good manager, of course. Just makes his failures less telling/extreme.

Real Sociedad I honestly know nothing about.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Ironing Board » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:45 pm

YorksHammer wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:44 am
He was at Sunderland for a full season, and pre-season, in 2016/17, after Sam got the England job. You're right though, they were bloody dire that season. And that was with Moyes in charge of a team that Big Sam had taken 1.16 ppg with - Moyes got them down to a 0.7 ppg.

But also (and part of my post I was sure I had written but must have deleted at some point) - that 0.9 point per game average slots him in between Ian Holloway and Steve Kean in the 'worst managers of the last decade' list. And that only includes managers with a full season's worth of games.

I, personally, didn't think he greatly improved us when he took over from Slav. I've never looked at the stats from that season before, but checking them now Slav got 1.29 ppg from the 14 matches he managed that season. Moyes got 1.19 ppg from 31.
It was not the same side Sam saw safe the previous season. They lost most of their key players through sales, not turning loans into buys and through injury. Their key player was M'Vila, and he was a loan player that they would not pay for. Another key player was Kirchoff, who was a career crock who went back to permanently injured status.

They made a few 'big signings' which were basically made as they could stretch the payments over many years to bring down the upfront cost. As you can see now, they were in dire financial difficulties.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by spod » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:48 pm

Ironing Board wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:45 pm
It was not the same side Sam saw safe the previous season. They lost most of their key players through sales, not turning loans into buys and through injury. Their key player was M'Vila, and he was a loan player that they would not pay for. Another key player was Kirchoff, who was a career crock who went back to permanently injured status.

They made a few 'big signings' which were basically made as they could stretch the payments over many years to bring down the upfront cost. As you can see now, they were in dire financial difficulties.
Blimey, your encyclopaedic knowledge of Moyes-era Everton is rivalled only by your encyclopaedic knowledge of Moyes-era Sunderland.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Ironing Board » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:48 pm

Colours never run wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:20 am
But it's not just what he hasn't done with us and Sunderland, it also includes his time at Real Sociedad and Man Utd. You're having to go back something like 8 years ago the last time he did well for Everton and even then the football weren't easy on the eye and more about results. So for me, it's not at all hypothetical to question him as our manager for a 2nd time now, doing similar things to the last time he was our manager, following a very similar pattern dating way back to his Everton years.
His Everton team played very good football in their last season, and put up a top four challenge that petered out. Martinez's good footy was very much a continuation of what had gone on the previous season.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Ironing Board » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:52 pm

spod wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:48 pm
Blimey, your encyclopaedic knowledge of Moyes-era Everton is rivalled only by your encyclopaedic knowledge of Moyes-era Sunderland.
Better to actually understand the reasons why events happen, than just blindly blame someone without a knowledge of the facts.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by SiO » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:13 pm

Whoever the devil IB is, there's no doubting his knowledge on the work of our gaffer. What this thread is proving, to my mind, is what a depressing state West Ham are currently in. In more hope than anticipation I dream for a day where another find like Payet does pop up briefly. I'd say the day that proper money is spent on defensive positions that might be the start of better times that'd allow strikers to play in a more free manner. Until then it's relegation fight after relegation fight until the inevitable. My glass is pretty much half empty looking at things tonight.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Colours never run » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:51 pm

SiO wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:13 pm
Whoever the devil IB is, there's no doubting his knowledge on the work of our gaffer..
There is. They keep painting a misleading picture of a manager who seemingly cannot do much wrong and making excuses for him when it actually does. The evidence is overwhelming as to his out-dated methods as a manager in more recent times to the one he did a good job for Everton, producing very little to get excited about.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by goingunderground » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:13 pm

Jesus Christ. Ironing Board isn't even hiding his trolling anymore. PDC hard-working? Better than Payet? Madness. It's desperate AF and quite frankly, a bit pathetic and sad. Grow up.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Ironing Board » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:22 pm

goingunderground wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:13 pm
Jesus Christ. Ironing Board isn't even hiding his trolling anymore. PDC hard-working? Better than Payet? Madness. It's desperate AF and quite frankly, a bit pathetic and sad. Grow up.
I am not the only one who thinks Di Canio was a better player. He also achieved far more success than Payet ever did. Of course the player fresher in the memory may seem better, but I do not believe that to be the case. And Di Canio was a very committed players - he played with passion. He was mercurial, but a winner.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by prophet:marginal » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:35 pm

I agree with you, ref Di Canio and Payet, but happen to think them both over-rated.

Unfit to lace STB's boots.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Beavis Danzig » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:36 pm

goingunderground wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:13 pm
Jesus Christ. Ironing Board isn't even hiding his trolling anymore. PDC hard-working? Better than Payet? Madness. It's desperate AF and quite frankly, a bit pathetic and sad. Grow up.
he's not trolling, he just has a very patchy knowledge of WHU mainly based on wikipedia.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Ribbot » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:47 pm

Moyes is neither the problem or the answer, he is just a prawn in a GSB sandwich.

PDC vs Payet is more interesting. Carry on.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by goa127 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:54 pm

PDc v Payet? For one season Payet was a magician. Stopped the opposition from fouling round the box because of his deadly free kicks. Could he have kept it up if he'd stayed? I doubt it and I think that's why he was so good. He knew he was just on a secondment till Marseille sorted out their finances, so he made the most of it. PDC was a great player but never quite hit the heights of Dimitri (but did it for longer)

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:17 pm

Paolo Di Canio is my favourite ever west ham player who isn't called Carlton

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by BondsoBob » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:38 pm

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:17 pm
Paolo Di Canio is my favourite ever west ham player who isn't called Carlton
I loved Paulo as a footballer, and he is without doubt a West Ham icon. I just wish he wasn't such a twat in his political views.

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Re: David Moyes - 18th Permanent Manager of WHUFC

Post by Ironing Board » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:39 pm

prophet:marginal wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:35 pm
I agree with you, ref Di Canio and Payet, but happen to think them both over-rated.

Unfit to lace STB's boots.
Sir Trev is also a great man, which is not how I would describe Di Canio!

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