The Fans are part of the problem

Does exactly what it says on the tin - the forum for football-related discussion.

Moderators: chalks, the pink palermo, -DL-, Gnome, Rio, bristolhammerfc

Post Reply
User avatar
S-H
Posts: 17532
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:05 am
Location: Gif'n

Re: The Fans are part of the problem

Post by S-H » Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:39 pm

Ozza wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:37 pm
As I said in reply and as Rars said, once you finally see the truth, you can’t un see it, all the roads of this clubs problems start, end and involve the owners.
:thup:

Online
User avatar
Coops
Posts: 5225
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:23 am
Location: Rayleigh, Essex

Re: The Fans are part of the problem

Post by Coops » Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:42 pm

DaveWHU1964 wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:53 pm
To make it worse they came out with the "we're fans" lie knowing that real West Ham fans would always assume that other West Ham fans wanted what we all wanted - what was best for West Ham. They were that cynical that they knew our love for the club and devotion to it would create more leeway for them to do what they wanted. There are still far too many that excuse them/ cut them slack. At least in part for some it's because it's hard to accept that West Ham 'fans' would deliberately be doing this. Not accepting the truth allows the guilty to carry on doing what they're best at - destroying what remains of West Ham's identity and lining their own pockets.

I admire those who saw through it right from the off but I didn't - I cut these parasites slack for years - tell me if I'm wrong TTS but I think you did too - remember all the gradual re-building talk lads and lasses like us tried to get across in say, the Allardyce years? Don't know about you but I feel like I was duped because I wanted, I so ****ing wanted to believe.

Anyway once the penny has dropped with these scum you can never un-drop it as far as I'm concerned.

Bristol and Rars - :thup: Spot on chaps. Sadly.
My Dad called it the week they bought us. He said that they would be the worst thing that ever happened to West Ham. I never really got a chance to ask Dad why he thought that. It turned out that he was exactly right in his prediction.
Dad wasn't alive when they appointed his most hated manager (Fat Sam). I can't imagine what he would have thought of what they have done to his beloved club if he could see us now, It probably would have broken his heart.

WCpete
Posts: 16014
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2002 12:11 am
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: The Fans are part of the problem

Post by WCpete » Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:46 pm

With all of this being true, I wonder what the owners get out of going to the matches. You'd think watching mediocrity perform in front of general apathy that periodically get riled up enough to turn on them would make them want to stay home.

User avatar
Tenbury
Posts: 4337
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:28 pm
Location: Too near Kidderminster

Re: The Fans are part of the problem

Post by Tenbury » Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:49 pm

Well exactly how much is there to be made out of being top 6? I fully agree with RARS,TTS, et al, the way to make money out of the prem is to spend the least you can to just about stay in it ,and keep getting the tv cash.
....flog off your ground , rent an athletics stadium and fill it with tourists..bonus!.....tacky statues all round....

Be honest, they're bloody good at it.

Rays Rock
Posts: 3527
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:10 pm
Location: Sitting in the dschungel

Re: The Fans are part of the problem

Post by Rays Rock » Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:14 pm

Do they lack ambition or do they have a different ambition suited upon the funds either they or the club can provide ?
Only one club has won the big prize in its near 30 year history that hasn’t been one of the traditional big clubs or been bankrolled by a sugar daddy owner.

I’m playing devils advocate, but there is an element of truth in that realism.

User avatar
DM
Posts: 898
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:43 pm
Location: Itchycoo Park

Re: The Fans are part of the problem

Post by DM » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:40 pm

In truth, they bought us as a property deal. They had exactly the same MO with Birmingham and the attempted buy out at Cardiff which was to buy the club, sell the ground and rent a municipal stadium. It didn't work for them until they hit paydirt with our beloved Boleyn. They got their property deal, with 20 million add on profit disappearing over night plus they get to rinse the club they 'suport' for untold millions every year. One thing's for sure, the fans didn't pick this scenario.

Crouchend_Hammer
Posts: 13198
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:31 am
Location: Forest Gate

Re: The Fans are part of the problem

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:27 pm

Surely, and please correct me if I am wrong as I am not a financial expert by any means, there are easier, less time consuming, less stressful and more secure ways to make money than owning and running a relatively mediocre top flight football club

f the *only* ambition of the owners was to make more money why would they bother with all this?

User avatar
e17
Posts: 12658
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Deep deep down

Re: The Fans are part of the problem

Post by e17 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:30 pm

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:27 pm
Surely, and please correct me if I am wrong as I am not a financial expert by any means, there are easier, less time consuming, less stressful and more secure ways to make money than owning and running a relatively mediocre top flight football club

f the *only* ambition of the owners was to make more money why would they bother with all this?
Beats softcore porn or a yo-yoing Midlands club?

Crouchend_Hammer
Posts: 13198
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:31 am
Location: Forest Gate

Re: The Fans are part of the problem

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:38 pm

e17 wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:30 pm
Beats softcore porn or a yo-yoing Midlands club?
I am sure, but plenty of other investment opportunities out there surely?

Of course, the 'glamour' and high profile that owning a football club appeals to their egos

User avatar
bubbles1966
Posts: 49835
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 10:01 pm

Re: The Fans are part of the problem

Post by bubbles1966 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:49 pm

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:27 pm
Surely, and please correct me if I am wrong as I am not a financial expert by any means, there are easier, less time consuming, less stressful and more secure ways to make money than owning and running a relatively mediocre top flight football club
Not many over the last decade.

The arse will fall out of football soon though - they've devalued some competitions to the point of making the product scarcely watchable, while others have become too predictable.

There will be some Vince McMahon manufactured dramas and comebacks to try and cling to an audience that's losing interest (champions league viewing is down a third) - but ultimately, they have to even up the playing field and make the outcome less obvious.

User avatar
hammer1975
Posts: 11871
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 10:16 pm

Re: The Fans are part of the problem

Post by hammer1975 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:30 pm

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:27 pm
Surely, and please correct me if I am wrong as I am not a financial expert by any means, there are easier, less time consuming, less stressful and more secure ways to make money than owning and running a relatively mediocre top flight football club

f the *only* ambition of the owners was to make more money why would they bother with all this?
They bought the club for £20m - and switched out bank debt for some of their own (hence the low price)
They’ve then paid themselves that amount back in interest via high interest rates, and may well have made income through other less transparent means.

So they’ve probably already made their money back.

They value the club at over £600m - I think I read that Sullivan has the club at £800m in his Forbes valuation. As they’ve massively reduced the club debt (using operating income paid in by football fans through tickets, sky etc) they will need to use less of any purchase to repay and debt (and it could be nil if they repeat the transfer budget of the last summer for two of the next three windows). Thi means that they would walk away with their %age of £800m less any debt if they were to sell.

In 2023 they can also avoid paying any money to the govt/LLDC

The places to have made £800m return on a £20m investment in the last decade you could count on one hand I would suggest. They’re now all about protecting that profit by staying in the money league.

Crouchend_Hammer
Posts: 13198
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 9:31 am
Location: Forest Gate

Re: The Fans are part of the problem

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:47 pm

hammer1975 wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:30 pm
The places to have made £800m return on a £20m investment in the last decade you could count on one hand I would suggest. They’re now all about protecting that profit by staying in the money league.

Fair enough. Thank you for the detailed response

My follow-up question is why, if it is so straightforward to make big returns, do all multi-millionaires/ billionaires not do it?

Kialos
Posts: 8527
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:11 pm

Re: The Fans are part of the problem

Post by Kialos » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:16 am

BondsoBob wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:21 am
Leicester went into administration 10 years ago thus freeing themselves from their debts. That went a long, long way to subsequently helping them winning the title a few years later. It's very important to remember this when talking about the Leicester 'miracle'.
Although it was still a marvellous achievement.

Leicester went into Administration in 2002

Kialos
Posts: 8527
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:11 pm

Re: The Fans are part of the problem

Post by Kialos » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:23 am

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:47 pm
Fair enough. Thank you for the detailed response

My follow-up question is why, if it is so straightforward to make big returns, do all multi-millionaires/ billionaires not do it?


There was only one football club in Newham in financial trouble and only one Olympic stadium available to buy in Newham

westhamshares
Posts: 705
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:13 am

Re: The Fans are part of the problem

Post by westhamshares » Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:21 am

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:38 pm
I am sure, but plenty of other investment opportunities out there surely?

Of course, the 'glamour' and high profile that owning a football club appeals to their egos
Not many other investments yield anything like the return

They bought 50% of West Ham for £20m - it’s all stated in the conegate tax case which gnome can confirm with the option to buy the other 50% for £20m rising to £25m dependent on when they exercised the option.

Let’s assume the club is “only” worth £500m that’s one heck of a return and in the meantime they’ve also charged at least 4% interest and for quite a while considerably more on their loans to the club

Interesting (intentional pun) the only owners according to independent research by @swissramble and @priceoffootball to do so in the Premiership.

But don’t worry they are billionaire West Ham fans - dont know which one if not both of those might be untrue - in the conegate tax case Sullivan is described as a lifelong West Ham fan I kid you not

This is why they keep coming back - it’s not for the football or the view which having been there is awful looking out over 10m of trampoline

westhamshares
Posts: 705
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:13 am

Re: The Fans are part of the problem

Post by westhamshares » Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:26 am

hammer1975 wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:30 pm
The places to have made £800m return on a £20m investment in the last decade you could count on one hand I would suggest. They’re now all about protecting that profit by staying in the money league.
Oops hadn’t seen this response along the same lines as mine

Glad that someone else actually understands the Mechanics of the numbers which makes this transaction so profitable for the owners and is why they adopt the business model they do

West Ham fans my ass

Next (lower) level

#GSBOUT

User avatar
Tenbury
Posts: 4337
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:28 pm
Location: Too near Kidderminster

Re: The Fans are part of the problem

Post by Tenbury » Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:42 am

Well I don't understand all the financial stuff( and thank God for WHS and a couple more on here who do),
but I've been around long enough to know a couple of shysters when I see 'em..

User avatar
Ozza
Posts: 16524
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 4:41 pm
Location: Karens Tash

Re: The Fans are part of the problem

Post by Ozza » Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:10 am

Just out of interest what exactly did happen to reported 40m we got for the Boleyn?

User avatar
westham,eggyandchips
Posts: 15614
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:06 pm
Location: Homeward Bound

Re: The Fans are part of the problem

Post by westham,eggyandchips » Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:22 am

Turns to Stone wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:37 pm
You're missing the point that RARS is making. They're not trying to run a successful football club. They're trying to make themselves and their family richer.

And they're doing a superb job at that. That's their focus and their goal, and West Ham is the conduit for them to do so. West Ham's success on the pitch is irrelevant to their wealth off it. If anything, our mediocrity is essential as they don't have to spend more money to try and compete in the UEFA or Champions league.

They don't care where West Ham finish, they simply care that they are getting richer and richer.

And they are.
David Sullivan=

2009 - Millionaire
2020 - Billionaire

User avatar
the pink palermo
Huge noggin
Posts: 40382
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:00 pm
Location: Purveyor of Great and unmatched wisdom

Re: The Fans are part of the problem

Post by the pink palermo » Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:37 am

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:27 pm
Surely, and please correct me if I am wrong as I am not a financial expert by any means, there are easier, less time consuming, less stressful and more secure ways to make money than owning and running a relatively mediocre top flight football club

f the *only* ambition of the owners was to make more money why would they bother with all this?
And, to add insult to injury the capital they invested to buy the shares in WHU was less than the profit they made when they sold Bormingham City.

They bought BCFC for £700,000, and sold it 16 years later for £85,000,000.

Post Reply