West Ham Utd 3-3 Brighton & Hove Albion (01/02/20)

[Faithless]

The goal is 80% on Diop IMHO

Being generous in the extreme it's 33% on all three.

Masuaku ****'s up, Ogbonna hesitated, Diop hesitated then he isn't in a position to head it.

[Crouchend_Hammer]

We will have to agree to disagree then on this one then!

I played CB to a reasonable level, and if I was Diop, i would be holding my hand up in the changing room for that one, regardless of what other players had done up to that point

Loads of goals conceded will start with a mistake somewhere. A bad pass, a missed tackle, a stupid foul conceded. ANd most goals conceded are usually a sharing of responsibility to some extent. However, in this case, Diop really had no excuses for not dealing with a not particularly troublesome situation, it isn't as though what had gone before meant he was out of position or anything

[peter49uk]

He's learnt the lesson the hard way now

Do you think he has ? I predict he will still have him (Masuaku) in the team/squad for the rest of the season like wise Lanzini. With Lanzini its a real shame he hasn't returned at the same level before his injury I would suggest his injury is foremost in his mind so isn't 100% committed. Shame. For me Masuaka has always been a liability not just this season, giving the ball away like yesterday wasn't the first time he was doing this the season before. That's how I see it others will see it differently and that I respect.

[jacko]

Our defence will not perform until moyes starts playing the same back four or five reguarly. He needs to stop ****ing about.

[il_martello_di_genovesi]

The goal is 80% on Diop IMHO

:lol:.

You like Masuaku and Ogbonna so Diop gets the blame? You're losing it over the last 24 hours mate...

It's equal blame. Horrendous from Masuaku followed by no leadership from Diop or Ogbonna.

[Crouchend_Hammer]

Do you think he has ? I predict he will still have him (Masuaku) in the team/squad for the rest of the season like wise Lanzini. With Lanzini its a real shame he hasn't returned at the same level before his injury I would suggest his injury is foremost in his mind so isn't 100% committed. Shame. For me Masuaka has always been a liability not just this season, giving the ball away like yesterday wasn't the first time he was doing this the season before. That's how I see it others will see it differently and that I respect.

Masuaku is much better as a starter [as he showed v Liverpool] and when we had a good run of form under Pelligrini with him and ANderson linking up. The game is less intense at the beginning and he can grow into it.
When he comes on as a sub when we are ahead, he does struggle to grasp the situation and tries to play the same attack-minded way he always does, which is risky. In essence he struggles with the responsibility of shutting up shop. He really isn't the type of player to bring on to shore things up, especially if it means changing the formation and changing to five at the back. I actually think as a WB he can be even more of a risk than FB late in games as he knows he has Cresswell behind him so maybe loses the defensive focus, and thinks he has more licence to play a bit.
He is much more useful off the bench if we are trying to grab a goal as that is when his progressive approach can bring rewards and the pressure to defend deep is much less

[Faithless]

Our defence will not perform until moyes starts playing the same back four or five reguarly. He needs to stop ****ing about.

Ish, our defence won't perform until the mentality of the defenders change and that isn't generally something happens without changing the personnel.

I may disagree over who ****ed up the most for goals but a commanding CB stops all 3. He also tears whoever a new one on the pitch for letting his man go, setting a standard and example to be followed. Diop, Ogbonna, Balbuena (I hoped he had that in him) aren't natural leaders and wait for someone else to lead which then leads to indecision and errors.

[happydaystoytown]

Masuaku's half ars*d clearance straight to the opposition that led to their second goal, had nothing to with a change in formation but all to do with a complete lack of concentration and no care of the ball.
It was slack and careless play.

If in doubt put it down the line, don't play a thoughtless, hopeful pass infield.

He's one of many, in this badly assembled squad that aren't good enough at this level and it's the main reason why we're going down.
Not because of a couple of questionable decisions by Moyes. The manager is the least of our problems.

[Crouchend_Hammer]

:lol:.

You like Masuaku and Ogbonna so Diop gets the blame? You're losing it over the last 24 hours mate...

It's equal blame. Horrendous from Masuaku followed by no leadership from Diop or Ogbonna.

I would place the greater blame on Diop yes
I don't think any of the defensive unit covered themselves in much glory for that last 20 minutes - everyone lost their heads - but on that specific occasion Diop was ultimately the one who had the biggest role

UNfortunately, CBs, like GKs, usually have to carry the can as they are the last line of defence



However, I would be the first to admit that personal opinion towards players will always cloud my judgement to a certain extent. That is just behavioural science in action. I like certain players so will probably defend them more than others, whilst i was probably overly harsh on Carroll at times because i couldn't stand him. I expect that is the same for any football fan to a certain degree

I would still fundamentally disagree with Moyes changing the formation at that point though. When i played, there was nothing worse as defender, than having the manager change things around when you had got used to a system for 70 minutes. BY that time you have settled into a way of playing, you know what attacking players are where, you know where your team mates should be and you are working as a unit. Messing about with that adds additional pressure and mental stress at a time of the game which is pressure-filled enough

[coyi27]

Yes Masuaku gave the ball away but not sure how you can blame him for the goal when Ogbonna and Diop had an absolute age to deal with the ball. Might as well blame Cresswell for Brighton's first for giving away a corner.

[coyi27]

Btw Diop to blame 100% for me. Indicates to Ogbonna with his hands that he's dealing with it and completely messes up.

[happydaystoytown]

I didn't say it was all his fault, but he made a good start with that sorry mess of a goal!

[Crouchend_Hammer]

Yes Masuaku gave the ball away but not sure how you can blame him for the goal when Ogbonna and Diop had an absolute age to deal with the ball. Might as well blame Cresswell for Brighton's first for giving away a corner.

When Murray scored in the away game last season MAsuaku get pelters on here for that as he was the last person involved in the goal [it wasn't even his man!]. not many people were banging on about Yarmalenko giving the ball away needlessly that allowed Brighton to attack us when we were completely out of shape

We weren't even out of shape here. Diop just had to clear the bloody thing, which he would do 99% of the time

Also, for the last goal, who was supposed to be marking Murray in the box. He had time to have a cup and tea and biscuits before finishing that one

If only Haller could ever find that kind of space....

[jacko]

Diop is young and talented. This is a very hard situation for him. All young centre backs make mistakes but he is badly exposed at the moment. He isn't playing well but let's not slate him. How anyone can talk about our defence messing up and not mention masuaka for the second goal is beyond me.

[il_martello_di_genovesi]

I would place the greater blame on Diop yes

Masuaku has a simple clearance/pass to make. Smashing it into the nearest Brighton player is poor. If that's the best he could manage he may aswell have put it out for a throw in. Ultimately it starts from that and Masuaku can take some blame. It really wasn't a hard thing to do. Following on from that is hesiatation from both defenders. I'm not sure why it's only Diop's job. Either one of them can call and deal with it. Equal blame all round.

Yes Masuaku gave the ball away but not sure how you can blame him for the goal.

What was difficult about what Masuaku had to do? Pass a football to the nearest West Ham player or launch the ball away. A Pathetic and lazy swipe at the ball hit an opposition player and saw the ball go into our box. So yes it's certainly fair to put some blame on him.

[Faithless]

Btw Diop to blame 100% for me. Indicates to Ogbonna with his hands that he's dealing with it and completely messes up.

No he doesn't, at no point does he indicate anything other than trying to keep his balance

[happydaystoytown]

People going on about tactical errors and formations, when more often than not, it's a lack of concentration and carelessness, leading to individual errors.

[Crouchend_Hammer]

Masuaku has a simple clearance/pass to make. Smashing it into the nearest Brighton player is poor. If that's the best he could manage he may aswell have put it out for a throw in. Ultimately it starts from that and Masuaku can take some blame. It really wasn't a hard thing to do. Following on from that is hesiatation from both defenders. I'm not sure why it's only Diop's job. Either one of them can call and deal with it. Equal blame all round.

What we should do Martello at some point, is look back at each goal conceded this season and apportion blame for each one. See how similar or divergent we are in our view!

If i find a bit of time at some point I might give it a go

[Crouchend_Hammer]

People going on about tactical errors and formations, when more often than not, it's a lack of concentration and carelessness, leading to individual errors.

Of course, but making life more complicated by changing formation after 70 minutes doesn't help what is already a fairly stressful situation

[Faithless]

What we should do Martello at some point, is look back at each goal conceded this season and apportion blame for each one. See how similar or divergent we are in our view!

If i find a bit of time at some point I might give it a go

Tell you what CH, you and I have both played CB. Let's assume we do what we say and playing as Ogbonna, being closest to the ball, after it comes back into the penalty box, we take responsibility and head/smash the ball clear of danger. What do you then do?