Why modern football is broken beyond repair

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James P
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Re: Why modern football is broken beyond repair

Post by James P » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:05 am

BondsoBob wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:54 am
Really? I would imagine the next World Cup will almost certainly be won by one of the following 'big 6'. France, Brazil, Spain, Germany, Argentina, Netherlands.
Not much difference from who can win the Premier league in any given season.
Very different from Bundesliga, Serie A and Spain which was the main focus of the article where the same team or couple of teams win every single year. I would also say that in truth the PL doesn’t really have six potential winners at the start of each season. Personally I don’t think Arsenal or Man Utd are title challengers on any way shape or form. So even if we do go with your idea that the World Cup can only be won by one of those six, which I personally don’t agree with, that’s still far more competitive than most major domestic leagues.
Last edited by James P on Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ironilunga
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Re: Why modern football is broken beyond repair

Post by ironilunga » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:05 am

James P wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:08 pm
Everyone is in full agreement the club game is ****ed with the same teams winning the leagues by bigger and bigger and margins every year
I personally think it is more about football fan burnout. Im in my forties and dont care nearly as much as I used to. The majority of my season ticket holding years in the prem were dominated by Man Utd winning the league. It never felt boring and I loved the challenge of playing Man utd and other top sides when they came to town. The losses were forgotten but the rare wins or draws lived long in the memory.

Age has made me more cynical and hope has been slowly eroded both internationally and domestically by a series of failures and false dawns (and I am a very positive person!) . My young nephews, however, show the same buzz for the game that I used to, think it is magical and watch every match they can. They are on a waiting list for a season ticket and are obsessed with the premier league.

I will never stop supporting West Ham but I do think you have your era. The golden time for me was going to watch Hartson, Kitson. Rio, Paulo and all the others. Bloody loved it!

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Graza
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Re: Why modern football is broken beyond repair

Post by Graza » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:22 am

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:28 am
One player in the squad. Someone who that season had played 29 times for the Champions of England and who could play CM and full back.
Not really indicative of big club bias more Southgate picking an experienced player and leader who would add to the environment of the squad and be able to play in a couple of different positions. The kind of player you need to pad out the squad.
Played is strong, especially in the back end of the season where he played the full 90 just once in the last 5 games.

You could easily pick other players who were at big clubs but hasn't been featured parts of their squad lingard started just 20 premier league games for Manure, Phil Jones is Phil Jones, loftus-cheek, etc.

Southgate has been less bad about ignoring talent from "smaller" clubs, but there were a lot of marginal calls where he went with the easy option of whoever plays for the "biggest" club.

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Graza
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Re: Why modern football is broken beyond repair

Post by Graza » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:30 am

ironilunga wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:05 am
I personally think it is more about football fan burnout.
There is definitely an element of this, 24hr "news" channels, deadline day "drama" all that sort of jazz with 95% of it focused on the same 3/4 teams and the current wankfest over Liverpool. Sadly this generally magnifies the disparity in resources leading to a disparity in competitiveness.

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Re: Why modern football is broken beyond repair

Post by rciron » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:35 am

Graza wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:29 am
It's an interesting piece and it made me think about the number of games I watch. I have never watched the European Cups in the last decade bar a couple of finals with friends and then I was getting Dru k not watching the games. I don't watch many live games that don't include West Ham anymore, the results of most are predictable and the ones between the "bigger" teams have such a level of sycophancy from pundits and commentators I can't be bothered. It makes you wonder, if as a probably average supporter of an average sized club I couldn't give a **** about watching football that doesn't include my team, and even that is a chore some of the time, has the death spiral already begun?

The worst part is that the only thing I can think of to reset the playing field would be unthinkable. Even distribution of all TV/European cup money for all teams with spending caps of say 10% above that average to account for diversified income. Of course this would never be agreed and it would put our league at a disadvantage against the other European teams without this restriction. But surely it's the only way to save the "product" that is the premier league. It has to be a competition, which means it has to be competitive, which means that the "smaller" club's have to have the means to compete. That lack of competition is killing interest (certainly for me and I can but assume for many others) in the game in general. Yes if you are a non domestic "fan" of a club like Man City or Barcelona tuning in to watch them destroy the opposition (what was it 40+% of Barca and Real games won by 3 or more? It's stupid) you may not be the target, but football and our league in particular has a feel to it, generated by atmosphere, generated by people who want to be there. The number of Liverpool in our end and thus leaving via our routes after our home game with them shows how infected, indifferent and one sided our game is.

Money is the root of all evil and money is killing our game.

The "spectre" of a breakaway European Super league has never been a concern for me. I don't give a **** if we never play Manure again, it's one of the reasons I have never cared if we get relegated, I want to watch my team, not "City's Superstars" like a good customer. I also wonder if it actually has the allure they think it does. Basically everyone who watches Champions League now would watch it, but one assumes that FC Basel won't be welcome along with a host of smaller nations clubs, maybe even including the likes of Galatasaray? If the Champions League continued (which it absolutely would in the event that it wasn't UEFA sanctioned) then would there be the same interest from those countries in this new league? I don't think so, not to the same extent and certainly it would wain over time if their teams never had a sniff and they never got to see it in person. Would as well that Chinese/Arab markets prosper watching competitive games every week instead of beatings dished out by weaker teams? Would a Mourinio style defensive team win the league by suffocating the style teams? One assumes the rewards for winning said league would be preposterously enormous, and if they were indulging in self regulation (none) no limits on spending meaning that whoever won the first few times would then win forever. Imagine 5 years later and the likes of Manure, Bayern Munich and Barca are effectively no hopers with no way of getting up the league and no route out of it. Hilariously they will then feel the pain of the leagues they think they shafted by leaving. Meanwhile the domestic leagues would be shaken up, new "big" teams would be established and while the money for TV would be reduced for a few years it would be for the remaining teams to push for that new balance so that the disparity didn't occur again. How UEFA and by extension FIFA react to a breakaway would also be important, if they weren't getting their slice of the pie they could ban players from that league from international competition, which would divide players over going for the big money or their countries (I think we all know what most would do). Ultimately the closed shop with dominant teams would have less of an appeal than the perceived open shop of the current situation, it would divide fans, divide TV money and I think ultimately the one that would win out in the longer term would be the national leagues.

In short I think we would all be happier if they buggered off and did it, a fairer system was established for the remaining clubs and then their product was shifted off to the Far East/Arab market where it can slowly die of lack of interest.
:thup:

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Re: Why modern football is broken beyond repair

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:36 am

I think the 24hr coverage intensifies the media attention to the more successful clubs for sure but I grew up in the 80s and Liverpool seemed to win the league every year! They won the European cup 4 times in ten years or something like that
They were definitely on TV more and in the papers more than anyone else but because coverage was much lower overall it didn't seem so explicit, IMHO

I personally don't think football is broken. It is just different to when I grew up and reflects change in society for most part

Did I prefer it when I was 10?. Yes of course. But then I preferred everything when I was 10

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1966
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Re: Why modern football is broken beyond repair

Post by 1966 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:39 am

I watch football as a habit and hate myself for it.

Actually that's not even true because I don't even go to matches these days or bother to watch MOTD. I keep my eye out for football scores online and read Kumb. That's pretty f***ing sad for a 53 year old.

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Re: Why modern football is broken beyond repair

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:44 am

1966 wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:39 am
I watch football as a habit and hate myself for it.

Actually that's not even true because I don't even go to matches these days or bother to watch MOTD. I keep my eye out for football scores online and read Kumb. That's pretty f***ing sad for a 53 year old.
Football fans are addicted to hope. Most of us don't need success to stay engaged just the hope it might come one day. Take that away and the intensity goes out of it.

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Re: Why modern football is broken beyond repair

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:44 am

Graza wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:29 am


In short I think we would all be happier if they buggered off and did it, a fairer system was established for the remaining clubs and then their product was shifted off to the Far East/Arab market where it can slowly die of lack of interest.
Personally I dont see any appeal at all in a domestic league that doesn't have the best English clubs in it. Where is the glory in winning a league that is simply the also ran league?
The most eagerly awaited games of the season for me are rhe ones against the bigger clubs. The oes where you go in hope rather than expectation but the chance of an upset is there, and when it happens it provides the real moments of joy.
I doubt fans of Leicester of Sheffield United want a breakaway league. Nor the he fans of lower league sides who dream of getting to the top tier and playing the best teams. What are they playing for if those teams are no longer there?
A league without the big clubs would be proper boring in my opinion and would soon end up a league of haves and have nots anyway with the same group of clubs at the top each year. What would everyone actually be playing for?

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BondsoBob
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Re: Why modern football is broken beyond repair

Post by BondsoBob » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:58 am

To be honest I couldn't give a f@@k about international football. I haven't been able to get interested in England for about 25 years. Give me club football-warts n' all-any day.

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Re: Why modern football is broken beyond repair

Post by Tenbury » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:04 pm

Come a bit late to this because my internet has gone t*ts up.

For me,there's football, and then there's West Ham Utd.I love watching football( from the terraces,don't like the telly,though the radio isn't bad as it's closer to the real thing ,IMO). I can still go to Aggborough or FGR and enjoy myself for a couple of hours.
I don't love West Ham so much as I AM West Ham, a lot of the time I can't bear to watch. It's different to just loving 'football'. I want us to do well as much as anyone else,but I hate the Prem,and hand on heart, I'd prefer it if we weren't in it. Maybe I'm just senile.

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Re: Why modern football is broken beyond repair

Post by woodford » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:22 pm

Another issue is the bling bling fixation of the young players. I hate it, saying i dislike it is an understatement. Hating it is about right. They have no clue about the vulgarity of it, and seem too thick to grasp how they look . This may seem trivial but it goes some way to adding to the complete disconnect there is between the game and the people that made it what it is in the first place. I love seeing anyone, from any background at the top of what they do. This lot are lording it and acting up and IMHO rarely deliver what their egos promise.

Money rules, its as simple as that. This is a game of money, played with ball. And we are the baying idiots who come back for more.

There's a bit of me that really wants the perpetrators to fall flat on their face, but will they care a toss? Yes, as much as any multi millionaires ever could i suppose.

When the passion dies, and its already started lets be honest, the crowds go quiet, the spectacle goes with it. then the PL is just like anywhere else but just more expensive

Shoot me but from an odd perspective i actually admire G & S. They are a proper pair of ****s. We know it. They know it. But their level of complete disregard is quite something to behold. Very few people can muster the narcissistic traits quite like them. Most clubs would be unlucky with one, f*** sake we've got 3 if you count Tits Mcghee as well. If it wasn't for the fact that they're stuck in the 1980s i'd say nothing sums up modern football quite like them

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Re: Why modern football is broken beyond repair

Post by S-H » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:37 pm

As soon as gate receipts, and other match day revenue, were not a football club's main source of income, when loyal supporters became less important, and not relied upon to generate cash, that's when the game was broken.

Every single Premier League club, if they chose to, could afford to drop tickets prices by 50% or more, to give something back to the fans, to make football affordable, but they choose not too, instead many keep putting their prices up, season upon season.

Supporters not consumers!

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Re: Why modern football is broken beyond repair

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:54 pm

woodford wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:22 pm
Another issue is the bling bling fixation of the young players. I hate it, saying i dislike it is an understatement. Hating it is about right. They have no clue about the vulgarity of it, and seem too thick to grasp how they look . This may seem trivial but it goes some way to adding to the complete disconnect there is between the game and the people that made it what it is in the first place. I love seeing anyone, from any background at the top of what they do. This lot are lording it and acting up and IMHO rarely deliver what their egos promise.
very harsh that IMHO
Footballers are no different to other successful, well paid youngsters in other areas. Musicians, film stars, other sports stars, social media celebrities. That is just modern society for you. The rise of social media now provides a platform for rich, young people to display their wealth, and the 'bling' culture is just a modern-day fashion

personally don't find it any more vulgar than rich city boys living it up wolf of wall street style spending 5k on bottles of wine and stacks on coke and strippers.

As long as the players train hard and give their all on the pitch then what they do off the pitch is no-skin off my nose, same as footballers gallivanting around Stringfellows in the 80s

i am sure if i was 20 and earning loads of dough i would look like a bit of helmet to the outside world, and i am sure if footballers from the 60s were alive today they would do the same

Are footballers paid too much? For sure, but that isn't their fault, and at the end of the day, without footballers there would be no football, and football provides entertainment to billions around the world. Plenty of other people in other industries also paid far too much relative to what they actually provide society

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Re: Why modern football is broken beyond repair

Post by sheffhammer » Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:58 pm

Sheffield united were in league 1 in 2016 and without spending a great deal of money are now 5th in the premier league above the likes of spurs, man utd, arsenal. So it can't be that broken, we have just been heavily mismanaged from top to bottom as to why we are so far away from the 'top 6'

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Re: Why modern football is broken beyond repair

Post by BondsoBob » Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:25 pm

sheffhammer wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:58 pm
Sheffield united were in league 1 in 2016 and without spending a great deal of money are now 5th in the premier league above the likes of spurs, man utd, arsenal. So it can't be that broken, we have just been heavily mismanaged from top to bottom as to why we are so far away from the 'top 6'
I think Sheffield United will suffer from 'Second season syndrome'. Come next term I expect them to be down among the relegation fodder.

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Re: Why modern football is broken beyond repair

Post by OFT » Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:54 pm

Thanks for posting the article Puff :thup:

Interesting read although I suppose it's a comprehensive explanation of what everyone already knows albeit in a less detailed way. I, like others find football that has no bearing on the fortunes of West Ham of little interest at all. In the past I always felt that success was going to be difficult but at least there was hope, now it's just about making up the numbers. The 'big 6' or '4' could bugger off never to return as long as from there on in the playing field was genuinely even for the clubs that remain.

Great thread :thup: .

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Re: Why modern football is broken beyond repair

Post by OohAahButler » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:04 pm

Bottom line is, in the old days (1980s and 1990s for me) even though I knew we were generally pony, at the start of the season I would always have that tingle and feeling of hope that 'well, if we get a good run together, this could be our year.' And we'd have heroes like Brooking / Dev etc. who would stay with us year after year and not get swept up by the big boys the moment they got established.

Not any more. Best we can aim for is mid table obscurity. I never watch any Prem football that we're not involved in. And I don't enjoy matches against the big boys any more, because invariably it involves a men v boys humiliation.

I never thought I'd say this, but I've reached the stage where I'd be quite happy for the big boys to sod off and form their own European Super League and leave the rest of us to it.

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Re: Why modern football is broken beyond repair

Post by Graza » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:13 pm

Crouchend_Hammer wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:44 am
Personally I dont see any appeal at all in a domestic league that doesn't have the best English clubs in it. Where is the glory in winning a league that is simply the also ran league?
The most eagerly awaited games of the season for me are rhe ones against the bigger clubs. The oes where you go in hope rather than expectation but the chance of an upset is there, and when it happens it provides the real moments of joy.
I doubt fans of Leicester of Sheffield United want a breakaway league. Nor the he fans of lower league sides who dream of getting to the top tier and playing the best teams. What are they playing for if those teams are no longer there?
A league without the big clubs would be proper boring in my opinion and would soon end up a league of haves and have nots anyway with the same group of clubs at the top each year. What would everyone actually be playing for?
The shedding of those clubs isn't the be all and end all, the re-establishing some sort of base level to have competition again is. The simple fact is that those clubs would never allow the ladder they pulled up behind them and burned ever be rebuilt.

I used to look forward to playing the top teams, seeing if we could hold out or nick one. When did that last happen? When did it last happen for most teams? The Norwich win over Man City for instance is what we all used to enjoy. The article is about how much rarer that is becoming over all the major leagues, because that advantage is getting bigger and getting compounded year on year.

While the league might suffer temporarily from the loss of those teams it would be temporary. A new order would be established within 2/3 years, if the spending wasn't allowed to get out of hand again and revenues shared it would become more about tactics, training and nouse (sadly our owners would f*** us into the floor but what's new). You'd also see at least one of the 4/6 chosen teams relocate within 5 years I'd wager. It's start with overseas games for 2/3 a season then would either become properly nomadic or just move wholesale to China or somewhere like that. All of which would be the death of those clubs. As I said originally, football and our league in particular has its place, perception and international worth in no small part due to the crowds and the support. A "super" league would hollow out support even if they didn't move as the competitiveness drained and the cost of constant travel broke people. It'd be a great wheeze for 5-10 years with bundles of cash for those who can get it, but the national game would win out after that, especially if it produced a more compelling product.

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Re: Why modern football is broken beyond repair

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:36 pm

Graza wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:13 pm


I used to look forward to playing the top teams, seeing if we could hold out or nick one. When did that last happen? When did it last happen for most teams? The Norwich win over Man City for instance is what we all used to enjoy. The article is about how much rarer that is becoming over all the major leagues, because that advantage is getting bigger and getting compounded year on year.

We beat Man u [albeit a poor Man U side] this season. We beat Spurs away last season. We beat Chelsea at home the previous season

This season has shown that the top 6 isn't always the top 6. Take Liverpool out [who haven't won the league for 30 years] it is a very even league, with all the other 'top 6' getting beat regularly
The fact we are too crap to take advantage of this, doesn't negate the situation

The other European leagues are certainly getting less competitive. I don't dispute that. However, the English league is in a much healthier state than those IMHO

I still do not see any benefits in playing in an English league that doesn't have the best English club sides in it. What is the point? Endless games against other also-rans? All the best talent snapped up by the Super League teams?
What happens if two or three clubs begin to dominate this second tier?
Are we telling fans of clubs like Plymouth, Barnsley, Birmingham etc that they won't be able to play the big clubs ever again?

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