West Ham Utd 1-2 Manchester Utd (19/09/21)

[Up the Junction]

On Atkinson/penalty decisions... though the Soucek one remains mystifying.

[Billy Hunt]

Whether he missed or not, 95% of us, in Moyes’ position would’ve done the same thing.

Wow, really ? I must have missed the poll for that

[Alcaucin Ammef]

Thought really long and hard about this game. Given the respective budgets, I think we gave a good account of ourselves and should of had a draw. Then got to thinking position v position who would improve us from their billion pound line up..given we played / play similar formations.

De Gea v Fab = sorry it's De Gea
Wan Bissaka v Coufal = Wan Bissaka mainly for pace and attacking threat.
Varane v Zouma = Too early to call but very happy with Zouma.
Maguire v Ogbonna = Biased because I don't rate Maguire. Oggy starting to show age though. Love to see Diop develop
Shaw v Cresswell = No contest. Shaw. Biggest improvement we could make.
McTominey v Soucek = Soucek for me (especially last season).
Fred v Rice = No contest. Rice is way ahead.
Greenwood v Bowen = Greenwood but marginally.
Fernandes v Benrahma = Sadly Fernandes.
Pogba v Fornals = True bias. I love Pablo and hate Pogba!
Ronaldo v Antonio = Ronaldo is still world class but in our structure Antonio is huge and his loss yesterday was key. A 2nd career awaits Ronaldo as Tom Daley's Olympic partner!

Decider yesterday was Lingard who I think improves both line ups and is a better player than Vlasic.

Manager and team = Walk over for Moyes and team. I realise that's a good few Man Utd wins (well circa 50/50) but given their resources, I am " over chuffed" with how close each position was and bodes well for the future. Views?

[Billydinho]

Those Man United fans are typical spoilt glory hunters. Because they're Man Unite and because he's Ronaldo they seem to think every penalty is a "stonewaller" when in actual fact the first one he ran into Coufal deliberately (was so obvious and very Jamie Vardy-like) and the second one Zouma hasn't got anywhere near him.

The ref gave the crucial decisions their way, including our penalty which he initially waved away. Perfect example was Ronaldo's goal. Yes, he was on side but, given how close it was and the fact his arm was in an offside position, there's no way the linesman was sure.

The Soucek penalty decision was one of the most bizarre things I have ever seen. That was what you call a "stonewaller" and yellow card.

[Italian Hammer]

My thoughts post match and regarding Man U are pretty much the same as everyone elses on here.

I won't be reading the OV due to the nausea inducing levels of self-entitlement the average Man u fan has.

On the BBC live coverage it was just a total Ronaldo/Man U love in even including a post from some plastic fan from Canning Town.

Hopefully Moyes has learnt from it and a) never does a sub like that again (put some faith in the players on the pitch FFS), and b) we actually buy a striker who can fill Antonio's boots.

[claretchris]

Good take from Jonathan Liew in the Guardian, sums up our progression under Moyes, and the perception of the club from the outside -

‘ The main difference between this West Ham team and their immediate predecessors – even from the last season or two under Moyes – is that they now genuinely seem to believe they can win these games. Even the way they slumped crestfallen to the turf at full time felt instructive, the hallmark of a team that knew they deserved at least a point. The denouement may have been crushing and cruel. But perhaps the real story here was of a team still growing into themselves, who even in profligate defeat came within one fateful kick of stealing the show.’

[the pink palermo]

Good take from Jonathan Liew in the Guardian, sums up our progression under Moyes, and the perception of the club from the outside -

‘ The main difference between this West Ham team and their immediate predecessors – even from the last season or two under Moyes – is that they now genuinely seem to believe they can win these games. Even the way they slumped crestfallen to the turf at full time felt instructive, the hallmark of a team that knew they deserved at least a point. The denouement may have been crushing and cruel. But perhaps the real story here was of a team still growing into themselves, who even in profligate defeat came within one fateful kick of stealing the show.’

Liew nails it.

[Hockley Hammer]

‘ The main difference between this West Ham team and their immediate predecessors – even from the last season or two under Moyes – is that they now genuinely seem to believe they can win these games. Even the way they slumped crestfallen to the turf at full time felt instructive, the hallmark of a team that knew they deserved at least a point. The denouement may have been crushing and cruel. But perhaps the real story here was of a team still growing into themselves, who even in profligate defeat came within one fateful kick of stealing the show.’

Pretty much how I saw it. Man Utd. were a far better team than the one we played last year. Last year was a let-down, should have gone two up, then on the wrong end of an appalling piece of officiating and just ran out of steam against a team who can bring superstars on.

Yesterday, despite them playing some very good football at times, they will over-run lesser teams, we held in there and their second goal was the one time we really switched off when it mattered.

To get that lifeline at the end should have been taken.

I can see why Moyes did it, it comes off it looks good, it doesn't its an error. If somebody with Nobles experience can't bury that penalty in the circumstances, I don't see that experiment being repeated any time soon again.

I fancied Noble to score more than any of our players on the pitch (even Declan), missing it is football and an experience I have had too may times supporting this team.

[StevePottsGoalsReel]

On Atkinson/penalty decisions... though the Soucek one remains mystifying.

I still have no clue what's meant to have happened with the Soucek decision... Foul by him? Offside? If the latter, I'm not sure he even touched the ball.

Apologies if it's been mentioned elsewhere already, but it was barely even mentioned in commentary, I didn't watch the show after, and written reports only mention Ronaldo's extensive diving showcase.

[Billy Hunt]

Good take from Jonathan Liew in the Guardian, sums up our progression under Moyes, and the perception of the club from the outside -

‘ The main difference between this West Ham team and their immediate predecessors – even from the last season or two under Moyes – is that they now genuinely seem to believe they can win these games. Even the way they slumped crestfallen to the turf at full time felt instructive, the hallmark of a team that knew they deserved at least a point. The denouement may have been crushing and cruel. But perhaps the real story here was of a team still growing into themselves, who even in profligate defeat came within one fateful kick of stealing the show.’

He's right, and it does show progress, particularly with regards belief. Surely the full time reaction was due to the late goal against and the last kick penalty miss, not just the defeat.

We did however beat that lot 2 years ago under Pellegrini, almost to the day, and extend our unbeaten start to 5 games that season in the process. Then the wheels fell off.

Granted this Man Utd team has some better players than 2 years ago, although in my book they have a manager who was and remains a bit s***

[Ironing Board]

He's right, and it does show progress, particularly with regards belief. Surely the full time reaction was due to the late goal against and the last kick penalty miss, not just the defeat.

We did however beat that lot 2 years ago under Pellegrini, almost to the day, and extend our unbeaten start to 5 games that season in the process. Then the wheels fell off.

Granted this Man Utd team has some better players than 2 years ago, although in my book they have a manager who was and remains a bit s***

Ole is not a great manager, but he has assembled a very, very strong team. With someone like Tuchel or Klopp in charge they would be title favourites.

[ageing hammer]

I'm still at a loss to work out why the Soucek one wasn't a) given as a penalty by the ref, as it looked a clear a penalty as you'll ever see in real time, and b) wasn't overturned by VAR, as the error from the ref was clear and obvious given Wan Bissaka hacked at Soucek's ankle without getting near the ball.

has anyone got a clip of the incident I can't find one anywhere

[Caribiron]

Took my 14 year old daughter to her first league game. She apologised to the old fella sat next to her for shouting at Pogba to f**off! I'm torn on whether to be proud or not

IMO we played better than I thought we would and the real difference was in the final third. Vlasic was far better than we saw on Thursday but the absence of a target up front was notable. You can see that Vlasic and Cress haven't had the time to build that understanding you need, it'll come. I was getting frustrated at the number of misplaced passes out of the back and then remembered the job Antonio does in running the channels and holding the ball up - fair lay to him, I've coated him plenty of times but his value to the team is undeniable when he's not there. Bowen did a good job but isn't a patch on Antonio with his back to goal.

Noble and the pen? If it goes in he and Moyes are heroes, truth is it was a poor pen. What worried me most was that we clearly need a dedicated starter prepared for the job, that Moyes gave Nobes the nod speaks volumes as to whether we currently have that.

What did surprise me the lack of cards. Pogba taking out Zouma in the second half and not even being spoken to was astonishing.

As for Ronaldo, first half was breathtaking to watch him at times, second half was a masterclass in shithousery.

Overall the closeness of the game was such that it speaks volumes about the progress this team is making.

[Kludgehammer]

Interesting to read the OV (and good to see them being posted even when we lost), but all 3 of their "penalties" were disregarded by different sections of their fans : "number X was a dive, but Y was nailed on", "X and Y were dubious, but Z...", "X was a pen, but Y was a dive and Z was a tackle" etc.

[Crossd_Hammrs]

Zouma and Ogbonna played well. Coufal, Vlasic seemed to struggle. I'm acutely concerned for Vlad, he's not been the same player thus far this season. Hopefully it's just a temporary dip in form.

Funny how people see things differently. While I would still say Zouma had a good game, I wouldn't have singled him out for MotM praise - it was his headed half-clearance when Fab should have claimed it, though that could be on Fab (did he communicate?), did Zouma give Lingard too much freedom on the goal?, and I thought he was lucky not to concede a penalty - ultimately Ronaldo dived but it was a rash and unecessary sliding challenge that missed the ball. A couple of blips in an otherwise impressive match under a lot of pressure. At the time I thought he could have reacted faster for the first goal, it may not have made much difference, but we all just seemed to stand and watch Ronaldo follow up, Ogbonna was actually the closest - another defender I thought had a really good game.

Hammer of the Match, imho, was Coufal - against Shaw and Ronaldo. He got back to make a last ditch, sliding block against Ronaldo who had sneaked past Zouma, and Shaw put a 'reducer' into his side in the first half. He also got an elbow in the face from Ronaldo, which seemed to be ignored by the commentators. He didn't get as far forward as we often see him, but he was overlooked by his team mates while in a good wide, forward positions on several occasions (and not just this match). Fortunate not to concede a penalty, initially I thought he'd pulled out and Ronaldo made the most of the light contact, but watching replays back I think he got away with that.


I would rather say I thought ref had a stinker rather than criticise any of our players.
And how does Pogba get away with everything? He left a foot in on Bowen, then remonstrated with the ref for the free-kick he conceded - and argued and protested as part of a group every time. OGS must encourage that 90s surrounding the ref, pressure thing. It's definitely a tactic, even as just as Noble was about to start his run up, three of them stepped forward to the ref to complain - what could they all suddenly have to say that they hadn't already during all the VAR-checking?
I would love someone to take a quick free-kick just as they are all gathered around the ref.

[Het-Field]

It’s hardwired into Man U fans over the past 30 years. You’d have to hit Trumpian levels of delusion to buy it, and wait until you start listing the major decisions they have got during that time that have swung games and ultimately the directions of competitions.

[YorksHammer]

Wan Bissaka v Coufal = Wan Bissaka mainly for pace and attacking threat.

You might be the only person that would readily trade in Coufal's 7 assists and 1.3 key passes a game last season in favour of Wan Bissak'a 4 assists and 0.9 key passes per game.

[Burnley Hammer]

has anyone got a clip of the incident I can't find one anywhere

[westlondonhammer]

Good take from Jonathan Liew in the Guardian, sums up our progression under Moyes, and the perception of the club from the outside -

‘ The main difference between this West Ham team and their immediate predecessors – even from the last season or two under Moyes – is that they now genuinely seem to believe they can win these games. Even the way they slumped crestfallen to the turf at full time felt instructive, the hallmark of a team that knew they deserved at least a point. The denouement may have been crushing and cruel. But perhaps the real story here was of a team still growing into themselves, who even in profligate defeat came within one fateful kick of stealing the show.’

Completely agree

We genuinely deserved something yesterday and believed we could get it. Last season there was still a fear of this type of game.

I was gutted yesterday... had my 7 month old in my arms with us standing right in front of the TV watching the penalty and he looked at me with a 'wtf is going on here' face with my reaction to the miss. That's the start of his football journey for me now he is starting to pick up on these kind of emotions...

I have no qualms in the decision made by the manager. One of those 'genius if it comes off' vs 'disaster if it doesn't' type decisions which managers live and die by. For me, it was the right decision.

I thought the effort was there even if not everyone was at the races all the time from a quality perspective (Soucek's passing, Cresswell's crossing to name a few). Still hugely encouraging for me.

[Diogenes]

Regarding the OV, I really don't think most of those who posted actually went to the game. I didnt think Atkinson gave us anything yesterday, not even the handball penalty!