West Ham Utd 1-2 Manchester Utd (19/09/21)
Moderator: Gnome
- Up the Junction
- Thinks he owns the place
- Posts: 71110
- Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 12:03 am
- Has liked: 764 likes
- Total likes: 3494 likes
Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Manchester Utd: match thread
On Atkinson/penalty decisions... though the Soucek one remains mystifying.
- Billy Hunt
- Posts: 3217
- Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:05 pm
- Has liked: 471 likes
- Total likes: 364 likes
Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Manchester Utd: match thread
Wow, really ? I must have missed the poll for that
-
- Posts: 143
- Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:54 pm
- Has liked: 53 likes
- Total likes: 17 likes
Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Manchester Utd: match thread
Thought really long and hard about this game. Given the respective budgets, I think we gave a good account of ourselves and should of had a draw. Then got to thinking position v position who would improve us from their billion pound line up..given we played / play similar formations.
De Gea v Fab = sorry it's De Gea
Wan Bissaka v Coufal = Wan Bissaka mainly for pace and attacking threat.
Varane v Zouma = Too early to call but very happy with Zouma.
Maguire v Ogbonna = Biased because I don't rate Maguire. Oggy starting to show age though. Love to see Diop develop
Shaw v Cresswell = No contest. Shaw. Biggest improvement we could make.
McTominey v Soucek = Soucek for me (especially last season).
Fred v Rice = No contest. Rice is way ahead.
Greenwood v Bowen = Greenwood but marginally.
Fernandes v Benrahma = Sadly Fernandes.
Pogba v Fornals = True bias. I love Pablo and hate Pogba!
Ronaldo v Antonio = Ronaldo is still world class but in our structure Antonio is huge and his loss yesterday was key. A 2nd career awaits Ronaldo as Tom Daley's Olympic partner!
Decider yesterday was Lingard who I think improves both line ups and is a better player than Vlasic.
Manager and team = Walk over for Moyes and team. I realise that's a good few Man Utd wins (well circa 50/50) but given their resources, I am " over chuffed" with how close each position was and bodes well for the future. Views?
- Billydinho
- Posts: 17296
- Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:18 pm
- Location: Piss Making.
- Has liked: 174 likes
- Total likes: 770 likes
Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Manchester Utd: match thread
Those Man United fans are typical spoilt glory hunters. Because they're Man Unite and because he's Ronaldo they seem to think every penalty is a "stonewaller" when in actual fact the first one he ran into Coufal deliberately (was so obvious and very Jamie Vardy-like) and the second one Zouma hasn't got anywhere near him.
The ref gave the crucial decisions their way, including our penalty which he initially waved away. Perfect example was Ronaldo's goal. Yes, he was on side but, given how close it was and the fact his arm was in an offside position, there's no way the linesman was sure.
The Soucek penalty decision was one of the most bizarre things I have ever seen. That was what you call a "stonewaller" and yellow card.
The ref gave the crucial decisions their way, including our penalty which he initially waved away. Perfect example was Ronaldo's goal. Yes, he was on side but, given how close it was and the fact his arm was in an offside position, there's no way the linesman was sure.
The Soucek penalty decision was one of the most bizarre things I have ever seen. That was what you call a "stonewaller" and yellow card.
- Italian Hammer
- Posts: 2364
- Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2003 8:32 pm
- Location: God knows we need him
- Total likes: 299 likes
Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Manchester Utd: match thread
My thoughts post match and regarding Man U are pretty much the same as everyone elses on here.
I won't be reading the OV due to the nausea inducing levels of self-entitlement the average Man u fan has.
On the BBC live coverage it was just a total Ronaldo/Man U love in even including a post from some plastic fan from Canning Town.
Hopefully Moyes has learnt from it and a) never does a sub like that again (put some faith in the players on the pitch FFS), and b) we actually buy a striker who can fill Antonio's boots.
I won't be reading the OV due to the nausea inducing levels of self-entitlement the average Man u fan has.
On the BBC live coverage it was just a total Ronaldo/Man U love in even including a post from some plastic fan from Canning Town.
Hopefully Moyes has learnt from it and a) never does a sub like that again (put some faith in the players on the pitch FFS), and b) we actually buy a striker who can fill Antonio's boots.
- claretchris
- Posts: 887
- Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:22 pm
- Location: Penarth
- Has liked: 18 likes
- Total likes: 85 likes
Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Manchester Utd: match thread
Good take from Jonathan Liew in the Guardian, sums up our progression under Moyes, and the perception of the club from the outside -
‘ The main difference between this West Ham team and their immediate predecessors – even from the last season or two under Moyes – is that they now genuinely seem to believe they can win these games. Even the way they slumped crestfallen to the turf at full time felt instructive, the hallmark of a team that knew they deserved at least a point. The denouement may have been crushing and cruel. But perhaps the real story here was of a team still growing into themselves, who even in profligate defeat came within one fateful kick of stealing the show.’
‘ The main difference between this West Ham team and their immediate predecessors – even from the last season or two under Moyes – is that they now genuinely seem to believe they can win these games. Even the way they slumped crestfallen to the turf at full time felt instructive, the hallmark of a team that knew they deserved at least a point. The denouement may have been crushing and cruel. But perhaps the real story here was of a team still growing into themselves, who even in profligate defeat came within one fateful kick of stealing the show.’
- the pink palermo
- Huge noggin
- Posts: 45155
- Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:00 pm
- Location: The Notorious Gate B @LS
- Has liked: 813 likes
- Total likes: 3033 likes
Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Manchester Utd: match thread
Liew nails it.claretchris wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:16 pm Good take from Jonathan Liew in the Guardian, sums up our progression under Moyes, and the perception of the club from the outside -
‘ The main difference between this West Ham team and their immediate predecessors – even from the last season or two under Moyes – is that they now genuinely seem to believe they can win these games. Even the way they slumped crestfallen to the turf at full time felt instructive, the hallmark of a team that knew they deserved at least a point. The denouement may have been crushing and cruel. But perhaps the real story here was of a team still growing into themselves, who even in profligate defeat came within one fateful kick of stealing the show.’
- Hockley Hammer
- Posts: 3814
- Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 1:54 pm
- Location: Keeping calm and carrying on.
- Has liked: 1 like
- Total likes: 30 likes
Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Manchester Utd: match thread
Pretty much how I saw it. Man Utd. were a far better team than the one we played last year. Last year was a let-down, should have gone two up, then on the wrong end of an appalling piece of officiating and just ran out of steam against a team who can bring superstars on.claretchris wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:16 pm‘ The main difference between this West Ham team and their immediate predecessors – even from the last season or two under Moyes – is that they now genuinely seem to believe they can win these games. Even the way they slumped crestfallen to the turf at full time felt instructive, the hallmark of a team that knew they deserved at least a point. The denouement may have been crushing and cruel. But perhaps the real story here was of a team still growing into themselves, who even in profligate defeat came within one fateful kick of stealing the show.’
Yesterday, despite them playing some very good football at times, they will over-run lesser teams, we held in there and their second goal was the one time we really switched off when it mattered.
To get that lifeline at the end should have been taken.
I can see why Moyes did it, it comes off it looks good, it doesn't its an error. If somebody with Nobles experience can't bury that penalty in the circumstances, I don't see that experiment being repeated any time soon again.
I fancied Noble to score more than any of our players on the pitch (even Declan), missing it is football and an experience I have had too may times supporting this team.
- StevePottsGoalsReel
- Posts: 5928
- Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:05 am
- Has liked: 3203 likes
- Total likes: 2331 likes
Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Manchester Utd: match thread
I still have no clue what's meant to have happened with the Soucek decision... Foul by him? Offside? If the latter, I'm not sure he even touched the ball.Up the Junction wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:46 pm On Atkinson/penalty decisions... though the Soucek one remains mystifying.
Apologies if it's been mentioned elsewhere already, but it was barely even mentioned in commentary, I didn't watch the show after, and written reports only mention Ronaldo's extensive diving showcase.
- Billy Hunt
- Posts: 3217
- Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:05 pm
- Has liked: 471 likes
- Total likes: 364 likes
Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Manchester Utd: match thread
He's right, and it does show progress, particularly with regards belief. Surely the full time reaction was due to the late goal against and the last kick penalty miss, not just the defeat.claretchris wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:16 pm Good take from Jonathan Liew in the Guardian, sums up our progression under Moyes, and the perception of the club from the outside -
‘ The main difference between this West Ham team and their immediate predecessors – even from the last season or two under Moyes – is that they now genuinely seem to believe they can win these games. Even the way they slumped crestfallen to the turf at full time felt instructive, the hallmark of a team that knew they deserved at least a point. The denouement may have been crushing and cruel. But perhaps the real story here was of a team still growing into themselves, who even in profligate defeat came within one fateful kick of stealing the show.’
We did however beat that lot 2 years ago under Pellegrini, almost to the day, and extend our unbeaten start to 5 games that season in the process. Then the wheels fell off.
Granted this Man Utd team has some better players than 2 years ago, although in my book they have a manager who was and remains a bit s***
- Ironing Board
- Posts: 22195
- Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:11 am
- Has liked: 2082 likes
- Total likes: 1802 likes
Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Manchester Utd: match thread
Ole is not a great manager, but he has assembled a very, very strong team. With someone like Tuchel or Klopp in charge they would be title favourites.Billy Hunt wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:30 pm He's right, and it does show progress, particularly with regards belief. Surely the full time reaction was due to the late goal against and the last kick penalty miss, not just the defeat.
We did however beat that lot 2 years ago under Pellegrini, almost to the day, and extend our unbeaten start to 5 games that season in the process. Then the wheels fell off.
Granted this Man Utd team has some better players than 2 years ago, although in my book they have a manager who was and remains a bit s***
- ageing hammer
- Posts: 25477
- Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:04 am
- Location: Cockney Hammer's stunt double
- Has liked: 486 likes
- Total likes: 1491 likes
Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Manchester Utd: match thread
has anyone got a clip of the incident I can't find one anywheresendô wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:59 am I'm still at a loss to work out why the Soucek one wasn't a) given as a penalty by the ref, as it looked a clear a penalty as you'll ever see in real time, and b) wasn't overturned by VAR, as the error from the ref was clear and obvious given Wan Bissaka hacked at Soucek's ankle without getting near the ball.
- Caribiron
- Posts: 3176
- Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2004 5:25 pm
- Location: ...out west...
- Has liked: 104 likes
- Total likes: 51 likes
Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Manchester Utd: match thread
Took my 14 year old daughter to her first league game. She apologised to the old fella sat next to her for shouting at Pogba to f**off! I'm torn on whether to be proud or not
IMO we played better than I thought we would and the real difference was in the final third. Vlasic was far better than we saw on Thursday but the absence of a target up front was notable. You can see that Vlasic and Cress haven't had the time to build that understanding you need, it'll come. I was getting frustrated at the number of misplaced passes out of the back and then remembered the job Antonio does in running the channels and holding the ball up - fair lay to him, I've coated him plenty of times but his value to the team is undeniable when he's not there. Bowen did a good job but isn't a patch on Antonio with his back to goal.
Noble and the pen? If it goes in he and Moyes are heroes, truth is it was a poor pen. What worried me most was that we clearly need a dedicated starter prepared for the job, that Moyes gave Nobes the nod speaks volumes as to whether we currently have that.
What did surprise me the lack of cards. Pogba taking out Zouma in the second half and not even being spoken to was astonishing.
As for Ronaldo, first half was breathtaking to watch him at times, second half was a masterclass in shithousery.
Overall the closeness of the game was such that it speaks volumes about the progress this team is making.
IMO we played better than I thought we would and the real difference was in the final third. Vlasic was far better than we saw on Thursday but the absence of a target up front was notable. You can see that Vlasic and Cress haven't had the time to build that understanding you need, it'll come. I was getting frustrated at the number of misplaced passes out of the back and then remembered the job Antonio does in running the channels and holding the ball up - fair lay to him, I've coated him plenty of times but his value to the team is undeniable when he's not there. Bowen did a good job but isn't a patch on Antonio with his back to goal.
Noble and the pen? If it goes in he and Moyes are heroes, truth is it was a poor pen. What worried me most was that we clearly need a dedicated starter prepared for the job, that Moyes gave Nobes the nod speaks volumes as to whether we currently have that.
What did surprise me the lack of cards. Pogba taking out Zouma in the second half and not even being spoken to was astonishing.
As for Ronaldo, first half was breathtaking to watch him at times, second half was a masterclass in shithousery.
Overall the closeness of the game was such that it speaks volumes about the progress this team is making.
- Kludgehammer
- Posts: 9570
- Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2002 12:33 pm
- Has liked: 178 likes
- Total likes: 203 likes
Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Manchester Utd: match thread
Interesting to read the OV (and good to see them being posted even when we lost), but all 3 of their "penalties" were disregarded by different sections of their fans : "number X was a dive, but Y was nailed on", "X and Y were dubious, but Z...", "X was a pen, but Y was a dive and Z was a tackle" etc.
- Crossd_Hammrs
- Posts: 5572
- Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:28 pm
- Has liked: 370 likes
- Total likes: 222 likes
Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Manchester Utd: match thread
Funny how people see things differently. While I would still say Zouma had a good game, I wouldn't have singled him out for MotM praise - it was his headed half-clearance when Fab should have claimed it, though that could be on Fab (did he communicate?), did Zouma give Lingard too much freedom on the goal?, and I thought he was lucky not to concede a penalty - ultimately Ronaldo dived but it was a rash and unecessary sliding challenge that missed the ball. A couple of blips in an otherwise impressive match under a lot of pressure. At the time I thought he could have reacted faster for the first goal, it may not have made much difference, but we all just seemed to stand and watch Ronaldo follow up, Ogbonna was actually the closest - another defender I thought had a really good game.
Hammer of the Match, imho, was Coufal - against Shaw and Ronaldo. He got back to make a last ditch, sliding block against Ronaldo who had sneaked past Zouma, and Shaw put a 'reducer' into his side in the first half. He also got an elbow in the face from Ronaldo, which seemed to be ignored by the commentators. He didn't get as far forward as we often see him, but he was overlooked by his team mates while in a good wide, forward positions on several occasions (and not just this match). Fortunate not to concede a penalty, initially I thought he'd pulled out and Ronaldo made the most of the light contact, but watching replays back I think he got away with that.
I would rather say I thought ref had a stinker rather than criticise any of our players.
And how does Pogba get away with everything? He left a foot in on Bowen, then remonstrated with the ref for the free-kick he conceded - and argued and protested as part of a group every time. OGS must encourage that 90s surrounding the ref, pressure thing. It's definitely a tactic, even as just as Noble was about to start his run up, three of them stepped forward to the ref to complain - what could they all suddenly have to say that they hadn't already during all the VAR-checking?
I would love someone to take a quick free-kick just as they are all gathered around the ref.
Last edited by Crossd_Hammrs on Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Het-Field
- Posts: 10226
- Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:54 pm
- Location: Its great to be Irish, but its a miracle to be a Dub
- Has liked: 25 likes
- Total likes: 317 likes
- Contact:
Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Manchester Utd: match thread
It’s hardwired into Man U fans over the past 30 years. You’d have to hit Trumpian levels of delusion to buy it, and wait until you start listing the major decisions they have got during that time that have swung games and ultimately the directions of competitions.
-
- Posts: 9590
- Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:03 pm
- Has liked: 383 likes
- Total likes: 1415 likes
Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Manchester Utd: match thread
You might be the only person that would readily trade in Coufal's 7 assists and 1.3 key passes a game last season in favour of Wan Bissak'a 4 assists and 0.9 key passes per game.Alcaucin Ammef wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:51 pm Wan Bissaka v Coufal = Wan Bissaka mainly for pace and attacking threat.
- Burnley Hammer
- Posts: 16500
- Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:19 pm
- Location: was Colne, Burnley, Hull, Colchester, Norwich, Derby.... Now Nottingham
- Has liked: 236 likes
- Total likes: 2575 likes
- Contact:
Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Manchester Utd: match thread
ageing hammer wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:35 pm has anyone got a clip of the incident I can't find one anywhere
- westlondonhammer
- Posts: 21775
- Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 7:41 pm
- Location: Johannesburg
- Has liked: 1086 likes
- Total likes: 1397 likes
Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Manchester Utd: match thread
Completely agreeclaretchris wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:16 pm Good take from Jonathan Liew in the Guardian, sums up our progression under Moyes, and the perception of the club from the outside -
‘ The main difference between this West Ham team and their immediate predecessors – even from the last season or two under Moyes – is that they now genuinely seem to believe they can win these games. Even the way they slumped crestfallen to the turf at full time felt instructive, the hallmark of a team that knew they deserved at least a point. The denouement may have been crushing and cruel. But perhaps the real story here was of a team still growing into themselves, who even in profligate defeat came within one fateful kick of stealing the show.’
We genuinely deserved something yesterday and believed we could get it. Last season there was still a fear of this type of game.
I was gutted yesterday... had my 7 month old in my arms with us standing right in front of the TV watching the penalty and he looked at me with a 'wtf is going on here' face with my reaction to the miss. That's the start of his football journey for me now he is starting to pick up on these kind of emotions...
I have no qualms in the decision made by the manager. One of those 'genius if it comes off' vs 'disaster if it doesn't' type decisions which managers live and die by. For me, it was the right decision.
I thought the effort was there even if not everyone was at the races all the time from a quality perspective (Soucek's passing, Cresswell's crossing to name a few). Still hugely encouraging for me.
- Diogenes
- Posts: 5150
- Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:07 pm
- Has liked: 480 likes
- Total likes: 1201 likes
Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Manchester Utd: match thread
Regarding the OV, I really don't think most of those who posted actually went to the game. I didnt think Atkinson gave us anything yesterday, not even the handball penalty!