Watford 1-4 West Ham Utd (28/12/21)

[sendô]

Few people saying Rice ‘just needs to sit’ to allow Soucek to get forward more.

Couldn’t disagree more, Rice has been our best player and has taken his game to another level this season. No greater sight than seeing him drive forward with the ball past 3/4 players.

For England he ‘just sits’ and he’s half the player than he is for us.

Theres a middle ground to be found. Noone is saying Rice can never go forwards, just that Soucek needs to be allowed to more as he is more effective.

[steveyrockstar]

I've been saying this for the last couple of months. The balance between Soucek and Rice was better last season. This year Rice has been given license to get forward (and he's good at it), but we look far better when Rice sits and Soucek can surge into the box at the last minute.

I'm going to be super controversial and say that I wouldn't be against Rice going to Chelsea in the summer IF we can get Broja and Gallagher from them.

Rice is superb, arguably the best player I've seen at West Ham in my lifetime, but his emergence as an all-round midfielder is nullifying Soucek, who is so effective for us at what he does best. Today reminds us of that.

Broja on the other hand, I'm convinced is the striker we need, while Gallagher has been superb for Palace.

[mumbles87]

I think 4-1 flattered them we were excellent going forward, and the ref was a 12th man for them. Noble and Soucek were excellent, but Bowen was in a class of his own. He’s in much better form than Sancho and Grealish, and probably Mount, Sterling, Smith Rowe and even Foden. Saka is the only attacking midfielder who should be ahead of Bowen on merit. 3 assists and he was wrongfully denied a goal, and his work rate was phenomenal.
We still looked dodgy at the back. Diop was poor and Johnson looked all at sea at times.
I am happy for Vlasic who I don’t think put a foot wrong.
You could argue we were with 5 of our first choice XI today, but Dawson, Noble, and Lanzini stepped up. I hope Moyes saw how much more effective Soucek was in a more advanced role.

mount and smith rowe are in good form to be fair.. sterling there is a case but for england he really turns up (edit sterling also has 7 goals.. same as mount and one behind smithrowe)

[Gsbgsb]

I am not getting the Johnson knocking. Yes his forward distribution was not the best but he defended well against their best player. Generally tackling or blocking most things, winning his share of headers etc. He was the LB this was his primary job.

The contrast with Arthur was startling in this respect.

Few minutes on the pitch and he is overlapping Benrahma. We are winning 3-1, the only way they get anything is if we make a mistake and here he is leaving a huge space when he knows our left sided CB is suspect and our midfield questionable pace wise to get across and cover. Luckily when Arthur lost possession they were not good enough to capitalise.

5 minutes later and he is 5 yards ahead of their player when they get the ball. He cannot defend him from there but again they are so poor nothing comes of it.

[mumbles87]

I'm going to be super controversial and say that I wouldn't be against Rice going to Chelsea in the summer IF we can get Broja and Gallagher from them.

Rice is superb, arguably the best player I've seen at West Ham in my lifetime, but his emergence as an all-round midfielder is nullifying Soucek, who is so effective for us at what he does best. Today reminds us of that.

Broja on the other hand, I'm convinced is the striker we need, while Gallagher has been superb for Palace.

would this not present a similar issue with gallagher and soucek? i mean he wont sit back

[prophet:marginal]

Johnson had a decent, if not perfect, match, imo.

That little play against his opponent, to win a goal kick, shows how he has already started to develop game intelligence.

Has already started it, of course, but this is a player who will play the entirety of his league career in the top flight.

[Ironing Board]

I'm going to be super controversial and say that I wouldn't be against Rice going to Chelsea in the summer IF we can get Broja and Gallagher from them.

Rice is superb, arguably the best player I've seen at West Ham in my lifetime, but his emergence as an all-round midfielder is nullifying Soucek, who is so effective for us at what he does best. Today reminds us of that.

Broja on the other hand, I'm convinced is the striker we need, while Gallagher has been superb for Palace.

I’d take little Billy Gilmour. In time he will be as good as Rice, and hopefully we’d get a big fat wedge into the bargain.

[Roby]

Can’t see it mentioned on here and Amazon didn’t show it in their analysis but that was a hell of a shot from Benrahma that hit the bar in the first half.

Lovely effort and struck it very cleanly.

[Ironing Board]

Can’t see it mentioned on here and Amazon didn’t show it in their analysis but that was a hell of a shot from Benrahma that hit the bar in the first half.

Lovely effort and struck it very cleanly.

Yeah, was much better than his goal!

[DM]

Johnson had a decent, if not perfect, match, imo.

That little play against his opponent, to win a goal kick, shows how he has already started to develop game intelligence.

Has already started it, of course, but this is a player who will play the entirety of his league career in the top flight.

Thought Johnson was awful today. Didn't want to get close to his man and Diop had to come over and cover for him numerous times. Looks more assured at right back.

[prophet:marginal]

In what ways was he awful?

[Turtlecharityracer]

Good result which Moyes seriously needed, but I've heard some things on here today.

1, We were playing the WORST team I've seen in the PL in years
2, People saying we are a better team with Rice. Good God twice over. Rice is levels above us. Remember, we were playing the WORST team I've seen in the PL in years
3, Soucek back to form after a very poor season. Remember, we were playing the WORST team I've seen in the PL in years

Lets see how we do without Rice against a team that can play football
Let's measure Soucek against a team that can play football.

The one true class performance today was Bowen. The second most important player was Lanzini because he was prepared to take the ball in tight positions and let it moving all game.

Let's hold our breath before saying we are back on song.

[djbubbles]

Soucek showing he is the better attacking player compared to his normal midfielder partner.

We need to stop pandering to Rice and tell him he's the one to the sit more or often of the two.

Said this weeks ago. Tommy more forward than Dec most of the time. Not saying that Dec cant and shouldnt get forward. Tommy just needs to watch him and act accordingly when he does

[Aztec Hammer]

I’d take little Billy Gilmour. In time he will be as good as Rice, and hopefully we’d get a big fat wedge into the bargain.

No, he won’t.

[Turtlecharityracer]

Thought Johnson was awful today. Didn't want to get close to his man and Diop had to come over and cover for him numerous times. Looks more assured at right back.

Johnsons passing was beyond atrocious. Sorry, but imo, nowhere near a PL player.

[Doc H Ball]

Strewth Watford were crap. Pleased we swerved King.

I didn’t think it was a foul for our disallowed goal nor a penalty in real time. Getting increasingly fed up with VAR spoiling the live experience.

Highlight for me was Vlasic goal and seeing Noble recover from a dodgy start to sew things together.

A back 4 and 2 holding CMs? My memory ain’t great but don’t think Moyes played that way for ages. I’ve always liked that shape and despite not exactly looking sound, at least it’s an option with Coufal and Johnson.

Watford and Norwich undoubtedly doomed, just hope Saudi FC join them.

[Billy Hunt]

I am not getting the Johnson knocking. Yes his forward distribution was not the best but he defended well against their best player. Generally tackling or blocking most things, winning his share of headers etc. He was the LB this was his primary job.

The contrast with Arthur was startling in this respect.

Few minutes on the pitch and he is overlapping Benrahma. We are winning 3-1, the only way they get anything is if we make a mistake and here he is leaving a huge space when he knows our left sided CB is suspect and our midfield questionable pace wise to get across and cover. Luckily when Arthur lost possession they were not good enough to capitalise.

5 minutes later and he is 5 yards ahead of their player when they get the ball. He cannot defend him from there but again they are so poor nothing comes of it.

Agree, defensively Johnson did OK.

[DM]

In what ways was he awful?

He was consistently out of position leaving Diop to have to cover for him and thus leaving space in the penalty area. His distribution was poor and he offered little going forward. Compare and contrast with Coufal on the right. IMHO of course.

[endofthenorthernline]

So did Geoff Hurst

And Frankie Mac was signed by John Lyall as an attacking midfielder, first game of season Goddard got injured so Frank was pushed up front with TC and the rest was history as they say.
Not saying Soucek is another Macca but he does seem to know where the goal is given the opportunities.
Oh for the days when teams fielded 2 'strikers' and sometimes 2 wide men as well (did someone say Dev and Wardie?).
And we still had creativity in the middle of the park with Dickens, how formations and tactics have changed over the years.
Fergie built his united team on 442, he'd seem like a dinosaur with that now, but back then they were a machine.

[e-20]

As someone else mentioned we should try sticking Kral or Noble in with Tommy and Decs. Let them sit and release both Rice and Soucek to attack at times. It would make us more solid out of possession too whilst we have the duo of dogshit playing CB for us.

4-3-3 works well for those red scousers.

Sorry Noble was never a defensive midfielder in his heyday, so certainly is not now. His lack of marking and pace combined with that of Dawson and Diop’s jogging through custard nature when being constantly turned (as displayed in the first against Southampton) are the things of nightmares I do not wish to witness for real.