The Energy Crisis

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wolf359
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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by wolf359 » Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:21 am

My 2 year fixed ends in February. My £42 a month will be a distant memory by the looks of it.

Started to look around and it doesn't look very nice at all. Reckon I'll be lucky if I can stop it from doubling.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by mumbles87 » Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:06 pm

wolf359 wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:21 am
My 2 year fixed ends in February. My £42 a month will be a distant memory by the looks of it.

Started to look around and it doesn't look very nice at all. Reckon I'll be lucky if I can stop it from doubling.
Do nothing, roll into the standard variable it's better value than anything out there ..

Well unless u have a car or battery to charge and get the cheap night rate that's still good value.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by Junco Partner » Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:13 pm

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:10 am
In general gas and petrol prices aren't going to be coming down until we run out of them are they? As supplies shrink prices will go up. Its 18 years since the last time we went to war for oil supplies has anybody thought up a long term solution in that time.

Any solution isn't going to be in place by spring, you might get a few of the taxes frozen or cut but that only delays the problem.
Just over 10 years ago we led in renewable energy initiatives with tens of thousands employed in the booming green energy sector, for a wind-swept tide-bashed huddle of islands it made perfect sense to harness these forces and a small surcharge placed on fossil-fuel based power companies profits was partly funding it.

Then along came two posh boys determined to 'get rid of all the green crap' and tie our energy strategy to friendly Russia and the middle east.

The best way to protect cash-strapped households from soaring fuel bills was to end our dependency on increasingly costly gas by investing in energy efficiency and home-grown renewable power....that was true in 2011 and even truer today, but our government has wasted the ten years in-between.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by EvilC » Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:41 pm

Junco Partner wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:13 pm
Just over 10 years ago we led in renewable energy initiatives with tens of thousands employed in the booming green energy sector, for a wind-swept tide-bashed huddle of islands it made perfect sense to harness these forces and a small surcharge placed on fossil-fuel based power companies profits was partly funding it.

Then along came two posh boys determined to 'get rid of all the green crap' and tie our energy strategy to friendly Russia and the middle east.

The best way to protect cash-strapped households from soaring fuel bills was to end our dependency on increasingly costly gas by investing in energy efficiency and home-grown renewable power....that was true in 2011 and even truer today, but our government has wasted the ten years in-between.
Home grown renewable power is not reliable enough and also not as cheap as you make out. If it was, the Germans wouldn't currently be experiencing very high power prices right now. We also have significant wind generation here, and it not being very windy has contributed to price rises.

It also isn't solely on this government. Successive regimes have not given the regulatory clarity required to incentivise new baseload generation to be built here since the dash for gas. The solution has been new nukes IMO on the basis that they are carbon-free, however they haven't happened, hence we are where we are.

This illustrates what we are facing:


Until economic, large-scale battery storage exists, I do not see an alternative beyond nuclear power.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by EvilC » Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:44 pm

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:10 am
In general gas and petrol prices aren't going to be coming down until we run out of them are they? As supplies shrink prices will go up. Its 18 years since the last time we went to war for oil supplies has anybody thought up a long term solution in that time.

Any solution isn't going to be in place by spring, you might get a few of the taxes frozen or cut but that only delays the problem.
It depends, but it isn't that simple. If scarcity was the problem then gas would not have been trading at a few percent of the current price a couple of years ago.

If you can move away from using gas to fuel power plants and oil to run cars, build more nukes and more renewables then they will become less important.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside » Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:53 pm

Junco Partner wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:13 pm
The best way to protect cash-strapped households from soaring fuel bills was to end our dependency on increasingly costly gas by investing in energy efficiency and home-grown renewable power....that was true in 2011 and even truer today, but our government has wasted the ten years in-between.
Haven't we become the world leader in off shore wind? Haven't we added the biggest offshore wind farms in the world and are set to beat our own record this year. Didn't they announce a further 7gw of fields in 2019? Haven't they invested billions in this and created thousands of jobs? The industry seems to think they have.

Had our 2nd ASHP survey done today, looks like we won't be able to go that way as there is nowhere that works for the outdoor unit. The first survey (same company) flagged up no problems whatsoever, they only came back because I was asking so many questions (thanks to Denbigh for pointing me to the ASHP thread). Bit disappointed as, despite all the what ifs, I was quite excited to try the new tech. Guess we are stuck on gas for the foreseeable.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by mumbles87 » Wed Jan 05, 2022 3:25 pm

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:53 pm
Haven't we become the world leader in off shore wind? Haven't we added the biggest offshore wind farms in the world and are set to beat our own record this year. Didn't they announce a further 7gw of fields in 2019? Haven't they invested billions in this and created thousands of jobs? The industry seems to think they have.

Had our 2nd ASHP survey done today, looks like we won't be able to go that way as there is nowhere that works for the outdoor unit. The first survey (same company) flagged up no problems whatsoever, they only came back because I was asking so many questions (thanks to Denbigh for pointing me to the ASHP thread). Bit disappointed as, despite all the what ifs, I was quite excited to try the new tech. Guess we are stuck on gas for the foreseeable.
I really want a proper ASHP however it looks like this energy price mess is going to push back my plan. Mainly because id need almost 100k to go full in... I want telsa powerwall batteries £10k per 15kw so thats 3 needed to be able to power the house for a day with a reserve incase of powercut .. but add a ASHP then you need like another 3 batteries prob. plus the ASHP then you might aswell get solar aswell to go full in and save as much as possible

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by Denbighammer » Wed Jan 05, 2022 3:28 pm

Our dependence on fossil fuels to power our cars is reducing rapidly. UK sales of electric cars is predicted to top petrol and diesel combined by 2024 or 2025 (I forget which)

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by -DL- » Wed Jan 05, 2022 3:49 pm

Denbighammer wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 3:28 pm
Our dependence on fossil fuels to power our cars is reducing rapidly. UK sales of electric cars is predicted to top petrol and diesel combined by 2024 or 2025 (I forget which)
The cynic in me could say that with the world pushing for people to go electric with cars, this price rise for energy is a little convenient. (Actually only half joking with that tbh)

It's going to be a long while before I switch to electricity for a car, in fact it may even be never. What have I got? 35 years left, maybe? (If I'm lucky). It will probably be never.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside » Wed Jan 05, 2022 4:06 pm

mumbles87 wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 3:25 pm
I really want a proper ASHP however it looks like this energy price mess is going to push back my plan. Mainly because id need almost 100k to go full in... I want telsa powerwall batteries £10k per 15kw so thats 3 needed to be able to power the house for a day with a reserve incase of powercut .. but add a ASHP then you need like another 3 batteries prob. plus the ASHP then you might aswell get solar aswell to go full in and save as much as possible
We were going to go with solar as well (both of us work for ourselves so are around through the day). Batteries would be something we would look at later. As a Yorkshireman (a scotsman with the generosity removed) I was keen to get in on the RHI thing, without it even the basic set up we were after is a bit too much.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by YGNB » Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:04 pm

Why haven't the government cut vat on fuel to 0% as they promised they would in the referendum !

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by mumbles87 » Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:07 pm

YGNB wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:04 pm
Why haven't the government cut vat on fuel to 0% as they promised they would in the referendum !
Tory in broken promise shocker .. especially Boris

What a grade a turd

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by RichieRiv » Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:48 pm

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 4:06 pm
We were going to go with solar as well (both of us work for ourselves so are around through the day). Batteries would be something we would look at later. As a Yorkshireman (a scotsman with the generosity removed) I was keen to get in on the RHI thing, without it even the basic set up we were after is a bit too much.
From what friends have told me who have invested in solar, we simply do not get the weather (you are ****ed in Yorkshire) to get the full benefit out of panels. It was fine when they both went out to work in the summer. The panels basically powered the appliances they had running - cooker clock, fridge etc and there was also excess that went into the grid, which helped offset their electricity bills. But since lockdown and enforced WFH, the savings have been negligible and they - 5 years on from having them installed - are a long way off breaking even.

On the boiler front, hydrogen may be the answer. Existing boilers can be converted to run on H with just a few changes in components, plus the billions of pounds of infrastructure that already exists under our street can be used to transport it. Why would Cadent spend 8 weeks last summer replacing gas mains along my entire road?
YGNB wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:04 pm
Why haven't the government cut vat on fuel to 0% as they promised they would in the referendum !
Do you think a pandemic might have got in the way and caused the government to borrow over £400 billion, taking our borrowing to 116% of GDP. That's the equivalent of you earning £2000 a month, but having bills of 2,320. How long do you think that's sustainable?

I think people (not you btw) forget that "government money" is actually taxpayers money.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by mumbles87 » Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:16 pm

RichieRiv wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:48 pm
On the boiler front, hydrogen may be the answer. Existing boilers can be converted to run on H with just a few changes in components, plus the billions of pounds of infrastructure that already exists under our street can be used to transport it. Why would Cadent spend 8 weeks last summer replacing gas mains along my entire road?
I really hope that it takes off. I think the ship has sailed for hydro cars (for normal people. long haul diff story) however if they could swap the supply of gas to hydro , considering like you say new boilers have to work off both anyways. Then ASHP etc could be limited for those off the grid (rather than oil deliveries etc)

we had a new boiler in 2019. I suspect it will last for a long time. hopefully hydro will replace gas in its lifetime.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside » Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:17 pm

RichieRiv wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:48 pm
From what friends have told me who have invested in solar, we simply do not get the weather (you are ****ed in Yorkshire) to get the full benefit out of panels. It was fine when they both went out to work in the summer. The panels basically powered the appliances they had running - cooker clock, fridge etc and there was also excess that went into the grid, which helped offset their electricity bills. But since lockdown and enforced WFH, the savings have been negligible and they - 5 years on from having them installed - are a long way off breaking even.

On the boiler front, hydrogen may be the answer. Existing boilers can be converted to run on H with just a few changes in components, plus the billions of pounds of infrastructure that already exists under our street can be used to transport it. Why would Cadent spend 8 weeks last summer replacing gas mains along my entire road?
I don't think solar is the money making scheme it once was, thats not why we would do it anyway. We have some cash for work on the new house and wanted to spend some on things that will reduce some costs in the future. I think they talk about a lot longer than 5 years to break even. My logic may be a little fuzzy but if it costs say 18p a KW to buy in and the SEG is 5p for every KW you export surely using it more yourself is the better way to save. If they are home more their usage will go up but that must be cheaper with solar than if it had gone up without them having panels.

If its anything like round here they will have done it because virgin had just finished resurfacing the road after the major work they did and it was just too tempting to dig up that new smooth tarmac.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by mumbles87 » Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:32 pm

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:17 pm
I don't think solar is the money making scheme it once was, thats not why we would do it anyway. We have some cash for work on the new house and wanted to spend some on things that will reduce some costs in the future. I think they talk about a lot longer than 5 years to break even. My logic may be a little fuzzy but if it costs say 18p a KW to buy in and the SEG is 5p for every KW you export surely using it more yourself is the better way to save. If they are home more their usage will go up but that must be cheaper with solar than if it had gone up without them having panels.

If its anything like round here they will have done it because virgin had just finished resurfacing the road after the major work they did and it was just too tempting to dig up that new smooth tarmac.
the more electric you use the better solar is for you. I mean our house uses 12kw a day in the summer without anything else going on. thats when we were on holiday..

atm its 25-30kw a day

other times of year 22kw ish a day

I would use most of the solar i produce and use to reduce my bills

my dream is to get the Telsa powerwall.. 45kw worth at 30k. id fill it up at night using my octopus go faster plan (currently 5.5p a kw) and then run it throughout day and do that every night.. i could get in something like 50kw a night but if I always have a full 45 at start of day id only be replacing something like 30kw so £1.65 a day rather than £4 a day .. thats without the car days which would push it up a bit (but id charge that in the cheap hours aswell) so £3.50 those days.. anyways thats a sizeable saving even with the prices as low as they are on my tariff atm

if i had to go on the new one which is 8.25p at night and 30p day time so just under £2.50 a day instead of £9 a day.. really makes it attractive .. £2000 plus saving a year.. 15 years to break even ..

short term powercuts would have no affect either

also if I added solar at a later date i could feed into the batteries and save on what id need to pull from the grid... however when the prices that low that would take longer to break even

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by EvilC » Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:09 pm

What is the lifespan of the power wall?

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by mumbles87 » Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:31 pm

EvilC wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:09 pm
What is the lifespan of the power wall?
telsa guarantee them for 10 years , if you dont get 80% of your available within 10 years they replace them

however they are rumored to last 15 years plus at a minimum

they say the payback is average of 15 years so its considered a cost neutral investment

Id love to be able to do what someone I met on nights did.. he bought a 32kw battery from china from a written off merc (car written off battery fine) .. built his own storage system with inverter (£500 per inverter) £4000 for the batteries.. i just wouldnt trust myself .. id stick with telsa..

plus i read each battery has 5kw output ability so you can get 62amps from the 3 batteries .. which would be same size of my current fuse so more than enough

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by 666 hammer » Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:41 am

mumbles87 I am confused as to why the determination on such a large power wall. If you have a good pv array this will run most of the equipment during the day with only some charge going to the batteries. If you install a ashp this will use up more power during daytime peak periods, even less charge back to the battery. Solar thermal is good, but if you have a ashp and good pv array, this will generate hot water for nothing on the days solar thermal will work. Usually when heating demand is low.
If you want batteries storage and electric vehicle, then cars compatible with power loop such as the Nissan leaf could be considered.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by 666 hammer » Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:45 am

As for building battery storage yourself :shock: you are right. The DC voltages from PV and batteries are fatal. Not to mention fire risks if installed incorrectly. Do not risk unless you are qualified.

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