The Energy Crisis

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SammyLeeWasOffside
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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside » Thu Jan 06, 2022 8:36 am

666 hammer wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:41 am
mumbles87 I am confused as to why the determination on such a large power wall. If you have a good pv array this will run most of the equipment during the day with only some charge going to the batteries. If you install a ashp this will use up more power during daytime peak periods, even less charge back to the battery. Solar thermal is good, but if you have a ashp and good pv array, this will generate hot water for nothing on the days solar thermal will work. Usually when heating demand is low.
If you want batteries storage and electric vehicle, then cars compatible with power loop such as the Nissan leaf could be considered.
From what I understand his plan is to charge the batteries from the grid at cheap overnight rates.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by RichieRiv » Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:20 am

I wonder how much your home insurance premiums will go up with all those batteries?

A mate of mine has just got himself a Tesla Model 3 (ponce). He was originally insured on his Disco Sport with Direct Line, paying something like 560 pa. They quoted him 1500 pa for his new jam jar. He then did the rounds with Aviva, LV etc and all were north of a grand. He ultimately had to go with Tesla themselves.

The reason why premiums are so high? Apparently, it's the batteries. If you get T-boned the entire cell needs to be replaced, plus there is a higher risk of fire.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by -DL- » Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:50 am

RichieRiv wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:20 am


A mate of mine has just got himself a Tesla Model 3 (ponce). He was originally insured on his Disco Sport with Direct Line, paying something like 560 pa. They quoted him 1500 pa for his new jam jar. He then did the rounds with Aviva, LV etc and all were north of a grand. He ultimately had to go with Tesla themselves.

The reason why premiums are so high? Apparently, it's the batteries. If you get T-boned the entire cell needs to be replaced, plus there is a higher risk of fire.
There's been a few articles on Autocar and other motoring sites about electric cars and their false economy. Higher insurance premiums, much higher purchase price, as well as other 'hidden' costs EV vehicle owners face, like going on long trips and hiring a combustion engine car, which is apparently a 'thing' too.

Not that mumbles will like this, one of the surveys/research pieces came out as having the Corsa E as the least VFM pound for pound of any electric vehicle once purchase price, running costs and depreciation are built in, and over an average three year life span, the total costs will be higher than the equivalent petrol engine Corsa, which from the outset can be found at 13k less than the E, or 10k less with the government top-up - plus of course, even without an outright purchase, lease costs are also far higher.

Unlike diesels, which had a higher initial purchase cost which became off-set by the more miles you did, EV's by their very nature don't allow you to use them as an efficient motorway cruiser.

My oil burning PUG does 67mpg on the motorway, so two gallons at just over £13 quid at today's prices, which means it will take not even two minutes to put in, is almost the entire range of a Corsa EV, which according to an online calculator will cost around £6 quid at home on a standard tariff. Yes, I know there are cheaper overnight tariffs, but that's without the cost of installing a charging point, plus the sheer inconvenience of such a piddling little range too. As things stand, unless it's an image thing, they just don't make financial sense, and I can't see why on earth anyone would sling money down the drain in getting one just now. These long term reviews on them are not from Dave down the road, they're reputable motoring magazines. (Of which there are so many, a quick search will find articles from them that bare this out, and it's not a personal attack on EVs!)

Technology, especially range, is going to need a massive change before an EV becomes practical in my world. I had to chuckle at a Renault advert that cited it took 40 minutes to give you an extra 80 mile range on one of their EVs, and painting it as a good thing.

Takes me less than 5 minutes to get a 700 mile range in my diesel. There's a loooong way to go yet for most people before EVs become the car of choice. Meanwhile, I've just renewed my Pug insurance and it came in at the grand old sum of £283 for the year.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by EvilC » Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:57 am

RichieRiv wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:20 am
I wonder how much your home insurance premiums will go up with all those batteries?

A mate of mine has just got himself a Tesla Model 3 (ponce). He was originally insured on his Disco Sport with Direct Line, paying something like 560 pa. They quoted him 1500 pa for his new jam jar. He then did the rounds with Aviva, LV etc and all were north of a grand. He ultimately had to go with Tesla themselves.

The reason why premiums are so high? Apparently, it's the batteries. If you get T-boned the entire cell needs to be replaced, plus there is a higher risk of fire.
I was told that if you prang it the cost of a replacement bumper or whatever is exorbitant as well, which plays into this.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by mumbles87 » Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:07 am

-DL- wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:50 am
Not that mumbles will like this, one of the surveys/research pieces came out as having the Corsa E as the least VFM pound for pound of any electric vehicle once purchase price, running costs and depreciation are built in, and over an average three year life span, the total costs will be higher than the equivalent petrol engine Corsa, which from the outset can be found at 13k less than the E, or 10k less with the government top-up - plus of course, even without an outright purchase, lease costs are also far higher.

my insurance on the EV is lower than its been on other cars and swapping the cars around in name it was still cheaper on the EV than the alhambra

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by mumbles87 » Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:08 am

EvilC wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:57 am
I was told that if you prang it the cost of a replacement bumper or whatever is exorbitant as well, which plays into this.
maybe on telsas but not all cars as the others (like hyundai and kia are pretty much normal cars)

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by EvilC » Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:09 am

mumbles87 wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:08 am
maybe on telsas but not all cars as the others (like hyundai and kia are pretty much normal cars)
Sorry, I wasn't clear, I meant on Teslas.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by mumbles87 » Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:12 am

666 hammer wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:41 am
mumbles87 I am confused as to why the determination on such a large power wall. If you have a good pv array this will run most of the equipment during the day with only some charge going to the batteries. If you install a ashp this will use up more power during daytime peak periods, even less charge back to the battery. Solar thermal is good, but if you have a ashp and good pv array, this will generate hot water for nothing on the days solar thermal will work. Usually when heating demand is low.
If you want batteries storage and electric vehicle, then cars compatible with power loop such as the Nissan leaf could be considered.
the savings on a powerwall would be amazing for the set up fee long term

on the tariff im on atm £2.5 a day saving, on the tariff ill move to either this year or next £6.5 a day saving which is a lot of cash to be saving.. or more importantly not going out every month

my electric bill could rise to £280 a month, via powerwall £80 a month to the energy company then £150 to the battery payments getting a loan via the mortgage.. so least the bills would level off at £230 which is still a saving but I have a system to avoid powercuts.. etc

ill look into it further after i keep an eye on the market... if they fix me on same rate for another year (which they have with others) ill see what happens

if they switch to the new rate then powerwall could be in by the summer.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by mumbles87 » Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:14 am

EvilC wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:09 am
Sorry, I wasn't clear, I meant on Teslas.
lot of balancing with tesla tho, i mean service costs much lower for example

id love a telsa 3 but tbh the non telsa options are getting better and more cost effective

cant beat telsa network of chargers tho

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by -DL- » Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:22 am

mumbles87 wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:07 am
my insurance on the EV is lower than its been on other cars and swapping the cars around in name it was still cheaper on the EV than the alhambra
It's like for like comparison, as in a petrol engine Corsa as opposed to an EV Corsa. Of course a Corsa will be cheaper than an Alhambra - ones a little runabout, the other is a sodding great people carrier, so it will be cheaper whatever way you look at it. They're an entirely different class of vehicle. It's a bit like me trying to justify to the wife that a Type-R would be cheaper to insure than a Jag XF V8 :grin:

Corsa E is insurance group 24-25.

Combustion 'regular' Corsas are 2-13.

The higher performance Corsas, like the 1.4T 150BHP and VXR 1.6T 205BHP are groups 21 and 35 respectively, but they're not really comparable with a normal day to day Corsa and the E as they're in a bracket of their own as it were, as they're hot-hatches.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by mumbles87 » Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:24 am

are they not tho? you need to compare what the corsa E gets you in terms of features as they are pretty much top end of spec..

134 BHP so they are not far behind the 1.4T in terms of a lot of things

the features inside push the insurance up for sure.. not just the EV side (not by much)

however people always fall into the trap when they compare

a basic corsa isnt an EV one.. EV is automatic so when you compare price you should compare the trim level and the transmission aswell in the cost

I mean a manual 1.0l corsa with standard spec is ofc going to be a lot cheaper than an automatic corsa e elite nav premium

(i will add the corsa side of the car is awful. its still a rubbish car.. the EV side however is good.. just poorly implemented by the PSA group. ill go EV again but not PSA)

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by -DL- » Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:36 am

mumbles87 wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:24 am

134 BHP so they are not far behind the 1.4T in terms of a lot of things

What's more likely to be swiped off your drive you reckon? A hot hatch that can be booted away and stripped for parts in half a day, or an EV that you don't even know if it will have enough charge to get to Tilbury or Felixstowe? Even if it didn't have enough fuel, you can just plop a tenner in and you're away. can't see the local chavs leaving it on a fast charger for 40 minutes, can you :winker:

It's not just about specification, it's also very much to do with how desirable it is to somebody that wants to nick it.

Besides, I'm not saying this as my opinion by the way - I'm just citing the motoring press who have these vehicles on long term tests and do running cost calculations that are far more in-depth than the average consumer would use and do like for like comparisons of equivalent models.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by RichieRiv » Thu Jan 06, 2022 11:10 am

-DL- wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:36 am
I'm just citing the motoring press who have these vehicles on long term tests and do running cost calculations that are far more in-depth than the average consumer would use and do like for like comparisons of equivalent models.
Do you mean people who may know a thing or two? Nah, it will never catch on.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by Denbighammer » Thu Jan 06, 2022 5:13 pm

Fire is a big issue with EV'S. Guy Martin did a programme and looked at fire in the batteries. There have been cases where batteries from burned-out EV's have re-ignited two WEEKS after being put out.

There are numerous cases of Teslas going  :fire: on people's drives and garages.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by 666 hammer » Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:20 pm

mumbles87 wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:12 am
the savings on a powerwall would be amazing for the set up fee long term

on the tariff im on atm £2.5 a day saving, on the tariff ill move to either this year or next £6.5 a day saving which is a lot of cash to be saving.. or more importantly not going out every month

my electric bill could rise to £280 a month, via powerwall £80 a month to the energy company then £150 to the battery payments getting a loan via the mortgage.. so least the bills would level off at £230 which is still a saving but I have a system to avoid powercuts.. etc

ill look into it further after i keep an eye on the market... if they fix me on same rate for another year (which they have with others) ill see what happens

if they switch to the new rate then powerwall could be in by the summer.
OK. But why the concern with power cuts? Unless you are in the sticks. And then a generator would be more cost effective and its use rare.
I would like to have PV on the roof myself and ashp. Sunny days I would use very little from the grid, unless the kids and wife are home.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by mumbles87 » Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:17 pm

After doing further sums I think a good investment for now would be a powerwall with solar

Just one powerwall

The key with powerwall is 5kw output at any one time .. that's 5 per powerwall so 3 would enable charging of the car and running the house

However 13.5kw usable

We average 25kw a day without car

6 in the cheap hours 19 in day

Could shift 13.5 into the cheap hours keeping 5.5 at the new higher rate but then the solar would help cover those hours

Cutting the bill drastically

Looking at £1.61 a day , then whatever the solar doesn't pick up we would pay 30p per kw

That would be down from £6.2 a day we would have to pay under the new rate

Call it £2.2 a day saving £4 meaning 12 years the install pays for itself

can always add more back up battery at a later date if the usage goes higher

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by EvilC » Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:36 am

So current prices are around half of what they were at the peak of December's spike, which was probably a gnat's cock from collapsing at least one major market player and may well have had a domino effect or some sort of series of state bail-outs. LNG has started to arrive and some of the risk premium has dropped out of the price as there is no more visibility on weather for the balance of the winter.

I hope we have now seen the worst of it and there is a fair chance that prices might go lower, albeit that they will still be really high by historic standards. The Centrica CEO has said this situation could persist for a couple of years and I agree with that.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by Slacking student » Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:35 am

This from Martin Lewis was enlightening on the current crisis and whether you should stick or twist on a fixed basis

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/ ... ise-a-hor/


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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by EvilC » Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:45 am

I think that is reasonable advice. You may see prices crater and it may create an opportunity for utilities to offer some moderately attractive rates and therefore an opportunity for customers to fix. If they happen to fall further then you can pay the exit fee.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by wolf359 » Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:01 pm

Slacking student wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:35 am
This from Martin Lewis was enlightening on the current crisis and whether you should stick or twist on a fixed basis
Thanks for that, my current is up mid Feb and that backs up the advice given on here and elsewhere for me just to leave all alone and let it expire. Just glad my bills are low, for families £300 a month is on the cards soon (if not already.)

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