The Energy Crisis

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EvilC
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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by EvilC » Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:34 am

February wholesale prices are now down around €70/MWh, vs their peak of €180/MWh.

I think there are a lot of indicators that it might fall further, with the elephant in the room being Russia/Ukraine and the potential fall out from that meaning that it could go the other way.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by Samba » Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:17 pm

Alf Garnett's (Ex) Missus wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:27 pm
Just fixed mine again from end of this month....2.5 times increase so will be turning down the heating and hugging a dog I think
I'm not hugging my echidnas, for anyone..

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by smuts » Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:28 pm

Not energy related but BT are putting their prices up by over 9% at the end of March.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by wolf359 » Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:13 pm

smuts wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:28 pm
Not energy related but BT are putting their prices up by over 9% at the end of March.
Virgin are similar, my £37 Broadband is going up £3.25 a month to pay for 'infrastructure investments'

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by mumbles87 » Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:04 pm

smuts wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:28 pm
Not energy related but BT are putting their prices up by over 9% at the end of March.
Most contracts will be rising but the agreed rise is awful now days ...CPI plus 4% in some cases? Sorry but why on earth should we pay extra on CPI ? Just inflation is fair thank you.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by Samba » Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:48 pm

Just getting rinsed by everyone, ain't we...

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by Clacton-ammer » Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:41 pm

Samba wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:48 pm
Just getting rinsed by everyone, ain't we...
Pretty much...

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by Junco Partner » Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:48 am

Unbelievable as it seems......we were net-exporters of gas in the most recent 3 months of available figures (Sept-Nov 2021)

Energy Trends UK, July to September 2021

National statistics Energy Trends: UK gas

At a time when we were seemingly being done dirty for the price of foreign gas, we're shipping it out to the highest bidders. If ever there's a clear illustration that privatisation of 'our' resources is incoherent ideological madness then that is it.

We don't own 'our' gas, corporations do, mostly foreign owned corporations at that. And corporations do corporation things...they will always sell where the profit margin is biggest and to hell with our shivering pensioners or bankrupt industries.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by EvilC » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:06 am

Junco Partner wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:48 am
Unbelievable as it seems......we were net-exporters of gas in the most recent 3 months of available figures (Sept-Nov 2021)

Energy Trends UK, July to September 2021

National statistics Energy Trends: UK gas

At a time when we were seemingly being done dirty for the price of foreign gas, we're shipping it out to the highest bidders. If ever there's a clear illustration that privatisation of 'our' resources is incoherent ideological madness then that is it.

We don't own 'our' gas, corporations do, mostly foreign owned corporations at that. And corporations do corporation things...they will always sell where the profit margin is biggest and to hell with our shivering pensioners or bankrupt industries.
It isn't really unbelievable though. We have close to no storage. Gas fields aren't just things you flex up and down. We have significant LNG import capacity.

What exactly are you planning to do with said gas if it isn't being used in this country? Flare it?

For a lot of the exports the UK is being used as an entry point for LNG. It then simply goes out and into continental Europe.

If you want you can not export it, and they can not sell us any electricity either. I can assure you that this would be bad for both us and for Europe.
Last edited by EvilC on Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by Junco Partner » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:12 am

What happened to our storage capacity?

Junked to increase profits for private companies.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by EvilC » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:15 am

Junco Partner wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:12 am
What happened to our storage capacity?

Junked to increase profits for private companies.
What happened to our storage was discussed earlier in the thread.

I'll ask again - what do you want us to do with the gas that we can't store and have no use for? You can't shove it back in the ground.

See the edit to my last post (added two more lines).

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by Junco Partner » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:37 am

I would have thought the answers were obvious. To me you're now arguing for arguments sake so I'll leave it after this post.

You seem to be suggesting that the gas sourced in our territory is not compatible with our electricity generation, which is as damning an indictment of our governments planning as anything, and that we import LNG just to export it again? Which again is a muddle of priorities to an insane level.

However, if our storage is so degraded (due to it being in private hands due) that we can't keep it for a cold winter and our infrastructure is so degraded (due to it being in private hands) that we can't burn it to create the power we need to heat our homes and run our industry, and our gas extraction is so uncontrolled (due to it being in private hands) that we can't scale it up or down to suit our needs then I don't think it takes a genius to see the root cause of the issue.

And even if you accept all those factors are in place and we still have to export gas to the highest bidder then we don't get to keep any of the profits generated the way say Norway can (due to it being in private hands) all that excess drifts off in dividends to foreign shareholders, hedge funds and tax havens....not into perhaps investing in the infrastructure thats so obviously needed.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by EvilC » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:53 am

Junco Partner wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:37 am
I would have thought the answers were obvious. To me you're now arguing for arguments sake so I'll leave it after this post.

You seem to be suggesting that the gas sourced in our territory is not compatible with our electricity generation, which is as damning an indictment of our governments planning as anything, and that we import LNG just to export it again? Which again is a muddle of priorities to an insane level.

However, if our storage is so degraded (due to it being in private hands due) that we can't keep it for a cold winter and our infrastructure is so degraded (due to it being in private hands) that we can't burn it to create the power we need to heat our homes and run our industry, and our gas extraction is so uncontrolled (due to it being in private hands) that we can't scale it up or down to suit our needs then I don't think it takes a genius to see the root cause of the issue.

And even if you accept all those factors are in place and we still have to export gas to the highest bidder then we don't get to keep any of the profits generated the way say Norway can (due to it being in private hands) all that excess drifts off in dividends to foreign shareholders, hedge funds and tax havens....not into perhaps investing in the infrastructure thats so obviously needed.
The answers are obvious. Exporting gas is no bad thing. Nor is importing it.

No, I'm not saying that gas sourced in our territory isn't compatible and that is not the case, I'm a bit surprised that I have implied that anywhere. What I am saying is that gas fields can't simply be turned up and down to meet demand (that's how gas fields work, nothing to do with being in private hands, you can probably make them more flexible but at considerable costs), and that demand fluctuates. Therefore in order to balance you turn to storage or to other sources (abroad). It is disgraceful private companies that own things like the Grain LNG terminal and the Dragon LNG terminal, which help us to balance.

You do get some of the excess via tax.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by Junco Partner » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:55 am

some doing quite a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by EvilC » Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:01 am

Junco Partner wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:55 am
some doing quite a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence.
Well, it is a better word than "all" in your post, which is simply incorrect.

To revert to your initial point, it isn't unbelievable that we are exporting gas.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by Junco Partner » Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:07 pm

You may have convinced yourself it's a perfectly normal and logical state of affairs, it doesn't mean it is. It's insane, doubly so when the price for importing gas leapt 250% in the year, tipping 6 million households into fuel poverty and driving 30 energy companies into bankruptcy.

NB: I said All the profits. Profit is commonly calculated after tax, so correct.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by EvilC » Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:16 pm

Junco Partner wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:07 pm
You may have convinced yourself it's a perfectly normal and logical state of affairs, it doesn't mean it is. It's insane, doubly so when the price for importing gas leapt 250% in the year, tipping 6 million households into fuel poverty and driving 30 energy companies into bankruptcy.

NB: I said All the profits. Profit is commonly calculated after tax, so correct.
You: exporting is bad.
Also you: importing can be expensive, this is also bad.

If everyone took your approach, which appears to be that exporting is not something that we should do, then every country would have to be 100% self-sufficient. This is an insanely hard and very expensive thing to do.

Profit before tax, operating profit, gross profit. All commonly used versions of profit. All pre-tax.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by Junco Partner » Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:48 pm

There was an economic justification given for exporting grain, oats, cereal and livestock from Ireland in the 1840's. Your argument is heading into that territory here.

Dividends can only be paid out of profits after-tax.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by EvilC » Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:12 pm

Junco Partner wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:48 pm
There was an economic justification given for exporting grain, oats, cereal and livestock from Ireland in the 1840's. Your argument is heading into that territory here.

Dividends can only be paid out of profits after-tax.
There is a justification for exporting gas here. There is nowhere for it to go. You can blame whoever for that, but it is a fact.

"Dividends can only be paid out of profits after-tax" adds nothing to the debate.

I'm done here.

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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by Junco Partner » Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:57 pm

Why are we importing gas at enormous cost if there's nowhere for it to go?

Your argument is nonsensical.

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