Allison Bailey

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sendô
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Re: Allison Bailey

Post by sendô »

I see this thread has inevitably descended into farce with people throwing around words like "genocide" in relation to trans people, at a time when rights, visibility and acceptance of such people has never been higher or more normalised.

It's language like this that gets people's backs up.
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Re: Allison Bailey

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

Bend it like Repka wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:29 am This legal issue is far more than just about sporting fairness...
It is and I didn't mean to give the impression that it was only about that, that does seem to be the bit that someone like me who is following mainstream stuff really come into contact with. It does feel like it's a part of this discussion that, if solutions are found, could impact lots of other issues around this.

The ladies in the article show this isn't going to be about the law either. Whatever the law decides that woman is never going to feel safe or comfortable in a group with the trans woman. These clash of freedom points are really what I was talking about.
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Re: Allison Bailey

Post by Monkeybubbles »

sendô wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:35 am I see this thread has inevitably descended into farce with people throwing around words like "genocide" in relation to trans people, at a time when rights, visibility and acceptance of such people has never been higher or more normalised.

It's language like this that gets people's backs up.
Genuine question....

Are you reacting to the original post that contained the word 'genocide', or are you reacting to the word itself?

Personally I'm a bit touchy about improper use of the word, but I thought that within the context of the post it made sense.
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Re: Allison Bailey

Post by sendô »

The original post. BBBB said himself that it probably sounded like hyperbole, and with good reason - it does.

Tbh it's not just around the so-called "trans debate". This sort of thing seems to happen with any and all debates and discussions around anything in the age of social media. Everything tends to an extreme, one way or another.
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Re: Allison Bailey

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True
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Re: Allison Bailey

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SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:18 am The ladies in the article show this isn't going to be about the law either. Whatever the law decides that woman is never going to feel safe or comfortable in a group with the trans woman. These clash of freedom points are really what I was talking about.
My wife made this point when the debate first started. Right or wrong, a number of women see this as "men" imposing their view of the world on them (again). The very thing they've spent decades overcoming.

Whenever an issue pops up it is always trans females. I'm yet to see an article about trans men asking for toilet equality, sporting equality etc.

The article is an extreme example of what I suspect is a common view that women are now scared to say openly.

I'm not saying that is a reason to do nothing, but everyone's rights have to be respected where possible.
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Re: Allison Bailey

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Referring to that study a page or two back... One of the main reasons CIS women have for not wanting to share toilets with trans women was to do with hygiene. Basically they didn't trust anyone with a penis not to destroy the place. Anyone whose used the gents toilets at TLS can certainly sympathise with that.
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Re: Allison Bailey

Post by last.caress »

Hammer1966 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:31 pm Referring to that study a page or two back... One of the main reasons CIS women have for not wanting to share toilets with trans women was to do with hygiene. Basically they didn't trust anyone with a penis not to destroy the place. Anyone whose used the gents toilets at TLS can certainly sympathise with that.
Off-topic (apologies) but as someone who has worked in pubs, bars, restaurants, banqueting departments and in large retail outlets I can promise you categorically that womens' WCs are frequently way, way worse than the gents. Believe.

With apologies once again.
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Re: Allison Bailey

Post by Bend it like Repka »

Bend it like Repka wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:29 am This legal issue is far more than just about sporting fairness...

Sarah says a new person attended a session, whom she understood to be a trans woman. She said the person presented as typically male, wearing male clothing. "I was a bit taken aback. I decided I wasn't going to speak that week because I wasn't comfortable."

"I don't trust men because I have been raped by a man. I've been sexually abused by men. And I just don't necessarily trust that men are always who they say they are," she said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61958346
This subject came up in my office yesterday. I did not raise it by the way, my female boss did because she gives donations to womens support centres.

One of the women, nice girl, mid 20s, ex uni, is very, for lack of any other word, woke. Her immediate reaction was to call Sarah a TERF, ignorant, and uneducated. A few others seemed to support that. Some women kept their heads down.

Me being me couldn't let it slide. So I just asked, a women who is the victim of rape and abuse by men, struggles to feel comfortable sitting opposite a person who clearly still presents as a man, while in a woman's support group, and she is a terrible person?

Apparently she is at fault because she should have told the group in advance the anyone presenting as male would cause her distress and she should have been prepared for the possibility that a trans woman would be at the group.

That's were we are at now.
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Re: Allison Bailey

Post by Greatest Hits Vol1 »

last.caress wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:47 pm Off-topic (apologies) but as someone who has worked in pubs, bars, restaurants, banqueting departments and in large retail outlets I can promise you categorically that womens' WCs are frequently way, way worse than the gents. Believe.

With apologies once again.
As someone who worked as an FM, I’ve also experienced this.
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Re: Allison Bailey

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Bend it like Repka wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:33 am Me being me couldn't let it slide. So I just asked, a women who is the victim of rape and abuse by men, struggles to feel comfortable sitting opposite a person who clearly still presents as a man, while in a woman's support group, and she is a terrible person?

Apparently she is at fault because she should have told the group in advance the anyone presenting as male would cause her distress and she should have been prepared for the possibility that a trans woman would be at the group.

That's were we are at now.
The only realistic fall out from that is said woman will no longer go to women's support groups and possibly spiral into depression.

The mental gymnastics some people twist themselves into serves no-one and a certain amount of common sense is needed.

I'd never be offended as a man by a rape victim being wary around me and not wanting to be open and vulnerable in front of me.
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Re: Allison Bailey

Post by billybondsballbag »

Love it when they out themselves with no help from me.

It was a rape support group. What do you think the transwoman was there for? My guess would be that she was raped, and that she's entitled to seek support from other women who are raped, but you seem to think that caring about the mental health of all women who have been raped is some kind of inclusionary mental gymnastics? If a member had a complaint about a POC being there because her rapist was also a POC, would her views be respected?

That's rhetorical. I really don't care to hear the mental gymnastics which justify transphobia.
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Re: Allison Bailey

Post by chelmsfordhammer91 »

I'm not sure if I'm way off the mark here so no offence intended, but couldn't the woman who felt offended in this case have just left when she saw there was a transwoman there?

The transwoman has every right IMO to be there(?), so to ask her to leave because of one person would seem rather harsh.

I understand our social support networks probably aren't funded too well but would there be other groups she could try?

Her feeling offended doesn't mean she is right IMO, but I do appreciate both sides to the debate.
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Re: Allison Bailey

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A quick observation about the phrase ‘CIS woman’ My wife is a 38 year old woman, she has never physically changed anything to do with her gender not has she chosen to change the way she is described as a woman so she objects to having it imposed on her. She’s not a ‘CIS woman’ she’s still a ‘woman’.
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Re: Allison Bailey

Post by Bend it like Repka »

billybondsballbag wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:01 am the mental gymnastics
From the poster rolling out terms such as genocide....
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Re: Allison Bailey

Post by Bend it like Repka »

billybondsballbag wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:01 am It was a rape support group. What do you think the transwoman was there for?
If at any point you can find the posts where posters said she didn't deserve support please feel free..............

billybondsballbag wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:01 am
That's rhetorical. I really don't care to hear the mental gymnastics which justify transphobia.
Tough. Again, disagreeing with a legal concept of when gender changes is not transphobia, it is an opinion on a concept.
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Re: Allison Bailey

Post by sendô »

billybondsballbag wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:01 am Love it when they out themselves with no help from me.

It was a rape support group. What do you think the transwoman was there for? My guess would be that she was raped, and that she's entitled to seek support from other women who are raped, but you seem to think that caring about the mental health of all women who have been raped is some kind of inclusionary mental gymnastics? If a member had a complaint about a POC being there because her rapist was also a POC, would her views be respected?

That's rhetorical. I really don't care to hear the mental gymnastics which justify transphobia.
You see, this is the sort of thing we're talking about.

If a male victim of rape turned up to a women's support group and made the women feel uncomfortable the general consensus would be that they should not be there, Yet because it is a male presenting trans woman we're all supposed to pretend that she doesn't in any way shape or form trigger the other rape victims and that if she does it's their issues and they should have expected it.

The mental gymnastics is that we're all supposed to accept women and trans women are one and the same with absolutely zero differences between them, whereas the reality is they patently are not. There is nothing "transphobic" about pointing out that reality.

Women are telling us repeatedly that they're being made to feel uncomfortable in their safe spaces, and yet the response is to tell them it's all their own fault and deride them as filthy terfs. It doesn't take a genius to see that this is not healthy behaviour and will not end well.
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Re: Allison Bailey

Post by Monkeybubbles »

Macca1973 wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:13 am A quick observation about the phrase ‘CIS woman’ My wife is a 38 year old woman, she has never physically changed anything to do with her gender not has she chosen to change the way she is described as a woman so she objects to having it imposed on her. She’s not a ‘CIS woman’ she’s still a ‘woman’.
Is she left handed or right handed? Blonde, brunette, redhead? Blue eyed? *

Would she object to being called, for instance, a 'right handed woman'? It's just a factual descriptor, exactly the same as 'CIS woman' is. Nothing is being 'imposed' on her.

Notwithstanding that, how often has she actually had to identify as a CIS woman? I don't ever recall having to identify myself in those terms, and I'm handsome enough to be gay.

Is she maybe objecting to a hypothetical situation?

EDIT: * pics please
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Re: Allison Bailey

Post by Macca1973 »

If one woman is described as a ‘CIS woman’ it’s one too many.

Your point about blue eyes, red hair or left handed is irrelevant as they are appearance traits, being a woman is a fundamental part of personal existence. If you choose to change gender and how you define yourself, that’s obviously fine but trying to change have womanhood is described is not on.

There are women, there are men and there are people that have transitioned, that’s my opinion.

Also, I have, in the last few months seen and heard women described as ‘CIS women’ ‘people who give birth’ and ‘people who menstruate’. Why have I never seen transgender people described as ‘non-CIS women’, ‘people that can’t give birth’ or people that can’t menstruate’? That would be too insensitive right?

This is the point, some people are forgetting about womens rights and sensitivities to appease a tiny minority. Women fought and sacrificed a lot for their rights and their voice! Far too much for women like JK Rowling and Sharron Davies to keep quiet.
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Re: Allison Bailey

Post by last.caress »

Macca1973 wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:33 pm Why have I never seen transgender people described as ‘non-CIS women’
Because the prefix "trans" is the opposite of the prefix "cis". Calling a trans person "non-cis" is like calling a right-handed person a "non-left-handed" person.

It's just a descriptive prefix, rooted in Latin. That's it. Nobody is imposing it on your wife. I'd certainly never refer to her as such because you've said she doesn't like it, and I'd want to respect that.
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