TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

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SammyLeeWasOffside
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

mumbles87 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:49 pm Nobody said that. All public sector workers should get the same rise as our MPs every single time. Good for them good for everyone else.

But no government suppresses workers wages whilst inflating their own
That doesn't always work out though.

MPs pay has risen 27% since 2010. On the same scale a band 1 nurse is due a £1500 pay cut under your system as they have had a 38% increase in the same period.
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SammyLeeWasOffside
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

the pink palermo wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:20 pm Who pays ?

How about big business.

When Fatch was in power CT was 46%, it's now less than half that.

How about the dead ?

Reduce the IHT threshold to £100,000

How about an online sales tax , say 2.5% ?
CT was 52% through the 70s. CTT was a higher collection of taxes than IHT.

We still ended up with high inflation, pay strikes and a season of discontent.
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by mumbles87 »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:30 pm That doesn't always work out though.

MPs pay has risen 27% since 2010. On the same scale a band 1 nurse is due a £1500 pay cut under your system as they have had a 38% increase in the same period.
That's the thing tho it would. If the pay rises were constant there would be no need to catch up with the big rises and wages wouldnt be so high in one professon compared

If say since 2005 they had all had RPI every year or 0% if RPI was negative then wages in real terms would be where they were and the Cost of living wouldn't have got so far away from everyone
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

mumbles87 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:20 pm That's the thing tho it would. If the pay rises were constant there would be no need to catch up with the big rises and wages wouldnt be so high in one professon compared

If say since 2005 they had all had RPI every year or 0% if RPI was negative then wages in real terms would be where they were and the Cost of living wouldn't have got so far away from everyone
If they had all had the same rises since 2010 the nurse would have £1500 a year less to face the current problems.

They are taking about striking as it is. If they'd had had the same rises as the MPs they would be picketing by now.
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by mumbles87 »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:39 pm If they had all had the same rises since 2010 the nurse would have £1500 a year less to face the current problems.

They are taking about striking as it is. If they'd had had the same rises as the MPs they would be picketing by now.
That's a far too simplistic view .. if EVERYONE had RPI then they would keep up with the cost of living.

RPI is 10% or higher ATM they would have a 10% rise this year..

Whilst they may have £1500 less in theory if you follow the RPI throughout the years they would be better off

Wouldn't just be one example either. Teachers, firefighters,, police officers

Plus it would have held back others who have had inflated payrises and got ahead
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

mumbles87 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:19 pm That's a far too simplistic view .. if EVERYONE had RPI then they would keep up with the cost of living.

RPI is 10% or higher ATM they would have a 10% rise this year..

Whilst they may have £1500 less in theory if you follow the RPI throughout the years they would be better off

Wouldn't just be one example either. Teachers, firefighters,, police officers

Plus it would have held back others who have had inflated payrises and got ahead
So we have already shifted from tied to MPs to tied to RPI. What would MPs be on if they had followed RPI 100k+?

Rising wages automatically by inflation could well trigger a wage spiral, plus who would pay for it? 10% for the NHS this year would be 6bn out of their budget. Plus higher pension contributions etc. Then teachers, firefighters, police officers etc. What are you cutting to pay it?

Who are these higher wage earners getting ahead, aren't pay deals equitable across a public service sector? If it's different aren't the unions of these higher earners going to say no?
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by mumbles87 »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:29 am So we have already shifted from tied to MPs to tied to RPI. What would MPs be on if they had followed RPI 100k+?

Rising wages automatically by inflation could well trigger a wage spiral, plus who would pay for it? 10% for the NHS this year would be 6bn out of their budget. Plus higher pension contributions etc. Then teachers, firefighters, police officers etc. What are you cutting to pay it?

Who are these higher wage earners getting ahead, aren't pay deals equitable across a public service sector? If it's different aren't the unions of these higher earners going to say no?
I know our wages are linked to RPI so we get RPI plus i think 0.1% past few years which until this year has been about 2%. There is more than one way to control inflation its just an excuse by those in power to keep wages of the working class suppressed.. I mean the majority of those not getting a rise there are people taking much higher rises.. for example the MPs took there rise.. the head of birmingham airport was it? took a huge increase whilst no rise for the workers there.. its become unbalanced (yes talking about private in that case but still it can be controlled in other ways)

I dont believe pay deals are at all equitable across the public sector. most were put on a pay freeze for years.

i would say the MPs and us are high earners getting ahead because the wages havent been suppressed due to the MPs dont overly vote down their deals and the gov has no say in ours.

If the system going forward was to link to whatever MPs are awarded all public sectors get that I doubt you would see many complaints.

paying for it.. well increase in wages increases tax revenue for one and rather than cutting you could just increase public spending and cut down inefficiency rather than try and cut services.

We always find the money when it suits but love to cut public services citing too much cost .. nothing wrong with well funded public services for the public

but we decide to sell off our assets for a quick buck (both labour and tory) and then let private companies make the profit

the tfl model is all profits from fares (which after boris left didnt even mean the 500 mil grant from gov each year) went into the network for improvements

with network rail its franchised out and the franchises make a profit leaving the public purse each year .. those profits could be coming into the treasury if we hadnt sold it all off

right now we are as close to renationalisation as possible with the franchises paid a small % to operate .. railways are a huge part of the green revolution that we need to tap into so getting them back in house to help fund it wouldnt be a bad idea.
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

mumbles87 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:10 pm If the system going forward was to link to whatever MPs are awarded all public sectors get that I doubt you would see many complaints.

paying for it.. well increase in wages increases tax revenue for one and rather than cutting you could just increase public spending and cut down inefficiency rather than try and cut services.

the tfl model is all profits from fares (which after boris left didnt even mean the 500 mil grant from gov each year) went into the network for improvements
MPs got 3% this year. Various unions are talking about double figure, tfl got 8.4%. You don't think anyone would be complaining at 3%

You want to raise wages to raise the tax to pay for the wage rise?
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by mumbles87 »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:55 pm MPs got 3% this year. Various unions are talking about double figure, tfl got 8.4%. You don't think anyone would be complaining at 3%

You want to raise wages to raise the tax to pay for the wage rise?
if everyone since say 2000 got the same as MPs same % each and every time there would be no complaints.. because everyone would be in the same boat. yes you may be behind inflation this year but other years they would be ahead. Plus because you would see those at the top taking 3% it would set an example to follow.

where as MPs getting on average say 3% a year whilst public sector frozen for years created a gap in wages and made them fall behind everything

in terms of cost if you actually owned your public services and the "profits" went back into the treasury rather than paid out to private companies it would provide a lot of the shortfall.

the rise in taxes wouldnt pay for the wage rises but would enable more to trickle into the pot.
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by sendô »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:39 pm If they had all had the same rises since 2010 the nurse would have £1500 a year less to face the current problems.

They are taking about striking as it is. If they'd had had the same rises as the MPs they would be picketing by now.
I'm gonna need to see some sauce on this SLWO as you keep claiming nurses are better off, whilst we all remember year on year on year of austerity and public sector wage freezes (it was all because they had bumper pensions, remember that?)
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

sendô wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:18 pm I'm gonna need to see some sauce on this SLWO as you keep claiming nurses are better off, whilst we all remember year on year on year of austerity and public sector wage freezes (it was all because they had bumper pensions, remember that?)
I haven't said they are better off but that in some cases have had greater pay increases since 2010. So tying their raise to the MPs over that time they would be worse off

I took the numbers for band a nurses starting out and MPs salaries (it applies for other band nurses too). The figures are out there I got them from nursing union and parliamentary figures. MPs have had 28% and the nurse 38%.

If the nurses pay had gone up 28% over that period (linked to MPs) they would be £1500 worse off.
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by mumbles87 »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:35 pm I haven't said they are better off but that in some cases have had greater pay increases since 2010. So tying their raise to the MPs over that time they would be worse off

I took the numbers for band a nurses starting out and MPs salaries (it applies for other band nurses too). The figures are out there I got them from nursing union and parliamentary figures. MPs have had 28% and the nurse 38%.

If the nurses pay had gone up 28% over that period (linked to MPs) they would be £1500 worse off.
It entirely missed the point of linked pay rises though

Everybody gets the same regardless

There would be less unrest and no oh MPs getting 3% whilst our brave nurses got nothing

Everyone would always get the same .. nobody would have known any different so wouldn't be chasing that mythical £1500


Perhaps with proper rises throughout the public sector you would see less of a staffing crisis in the nursing profession with people leaving before their record rises in pay

But also whilst I've said should be linked to MPs I've always thought % was unfair rather than a flat rate

The gap between certain grades used to be only a few £1000 a year a decade or so ago now it's much higher because of % rather than flat rate rises for all so all systems are full of issues
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by Ralph Mellish »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:55 pm MPs got 3% this year. Various unions are talking about double figure, tfl got 8.4%. You don't think anyone would be complaining at 3%

You want to raise wages to raise the tax to pay for the wage rise?
Not all TfL staff got 8.4%. I got 0% again.
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by mumbles87 »

Ralph Mellish wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:56 pm Not all TfL staff got 8.4%. I got 0% again.
You are fully correct, only Lul staff get the pay deals like above. I'm avoiding tfl contracts like the plague (no offence)
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

mumbles87 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:11 pm It entirely missed the point of linked pay rises though

Everybody gets the same regardless

There would be less unrest and no oh MPs getting 3% whilst our brave nurses got nothing

Everyone would always get the same .. nobody would have known any different so wouldn't be chasing that mythical £1500
That's all true but inflation would have still gone up the same. Prices would have gone up and the nurses would have £1500 less than they have today to deal with it.

In that situation people would be decrying that wages were fixed to what parliament gets and saying if xyz had happened they would have been £1500 better off.
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

Ralph Mellish wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:56 pm Not all TfL staff got 8.4%. I got 0% again.
Fair enough I didn't know, I was going on mumbles number. Didn't realise tfl wasnt one thing.

Tubes up here are what older women have trouble with 😂
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by mumbles87 »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:47 pm Fair enough I didn't know, I was going on mumbles number. Didn't realise tfl wasnt one thing.

Tubes up here are what older women have trouble with 😂
There lies the issue with a lot of the government.. lul is a company within tfl .. and the gov have no say on our payrises or pensions. The pension is a private scheme, which is run by trustees and 660 million in surplus as of last week .. where as the wages they can't control what pay deals we are given

They hate that.. if we had a Tory mayor it was highlighted in their manifesto to change tfl pensions etc

Now they don't think how many workers live in London .. like they will vote for them if they attacking their own pensions

It's the same as when bojo was mayor and agreed the 500 mil a year grant to go with Osborne.. if we today still had that money we wouldn't be getting bailouts of having funding gaps ... But ofc all khan's fault because it suits the narrative they are pushing
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by Big George »

Of course they won't do this because it would mean they couldn't blame Khan for their own mistakes
LONDON MP CALLS FOR TFL TO BE PUT IN 'SPECIAL MEASURES' AFTER SADIQ KHAN'S
FAILURES
A Conservative MP has asked Grant Shapps whether Transport for London (TfL) should be put into a form of "special measures", after criticising Sadiq Khan for overseeing more tube strikes than his predecessor.
The Metropolitan Police, the UK's largest police force, has recently been placed under special measures after a series of failures.
Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue Services (HMICFRS) said the Met is being closely scrutinised having faced extensive criticism following the death of Sarah Everard, who was abducted and murdered by serving Met police officer Wayne Couzens, and the Charing Cross police station scandal.
Speaking during Transport Questions in the Commons, the MP for Cities of London and Westminster suggested TfL should also be placed under the same status, blaming the Mayor of London for tube strikes and wanting to slash buses.
Nicki Aicken was not the only London MP to criticise Mr Khan in the Commons, though, with Felicity Buchan, who represents the Kensington constituency, later accusing him of "failing" her constituents.
Meanwhile, Transport Secretary Grant Shapps urged the former Tooting MP to "start taking some responsibility for his own transport system".
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by sendô »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:35 pm I took the numbers for band a nurses starting out and MPs salaries (it applies for other band nurses too). The figures are out there I got them from nursing union and parliamentary figures. MPs have had 28% and the nurse 38%.

If the nurses pay had gone up 28% over that period (linked to MPs) they would be £1500 worse off.
I still have no idea where you've got 38% from.

A quick search shows me this from 2021 where nurses pay is real terms £2500 less than in 2010.

https://www.tuc.org.uk/news/nurses-will ... terms-2010

Public sector workers had years of pay freezes and below inflation pay increases. I only ever remember MPs having a pay freeze once, right at the start of austerity.
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Re: TfL Bailout - sign of things to come?

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

sendô wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:16 pm I still have no idea where you've got 38% from.

A quick search shows me this from 2021 where nurses pay is real terms £2500 less than in 2010.

https://www.tuc.org.uk/news/nurses-will ... terms-2010

Public sector workers had years of pay freezes and below inflation pay increases. I only ever remember MPs having a pay freeze once, right at the start of austerity.
Band a nurse salary 2010 -. £13,653
Band a nurse salary 2022. - £18,546
Thats a 36% increase (not 38 as I stated before)

Numbers are from the NHS.

If they were on the same uptick as MPs the increase would have been 28%.
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