David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

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szola
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by szola »

If we are out of form, we'll have high expected goals with few conversions.

If we have been found out, we'll have low expected goals in addition to few conversions.

Also, our goals previously came from dead balls and/or counters.

How are those numbers at the moment?
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Burnley Hammer »

szola wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:26 am If we are out of form, we'll have high expected goals with few conversions.

If we have been found out, we'll have low expected goals in addition to few conversions.

Also, our goals previously came from dead balls and/or counters.

How are those numbers at the moment?
lower (see my post on the player stats thread)

Although expected goals wouldn't necessarily be high if our creative players were also off form.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by YorksHammer »

goa127 wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:55 am Is Antonio out of form at the moment? I'd say he's been decent, more a problem with others around him. Not that I'm anti scAmaçca, just don't think it's a simple either/or
Depends what you consider as 'form'. Is he scoring? No, not consistently across this calendar year. Is he still a nuisance and creating space/opportunities for others with his movement? Seems to vary from match to match.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by MB »

YorksHammer wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:13 pm Depends what you consider as 'form'. Is he scoring? No, not consistently across this calendar year. Is he still a nuisance and creating space/opportunities for others with his movement? Seems to vary from match to match.
But Yorks, if we set up like we are in the league then you have to play Antonio. We don’t progress the ball otherwise. We have no other out ball other than Rice running down blind alleys.

From what I have seen, Scamacca is a much better forward but not in our league set up. We either change the set up or it is Haller again if you play him.

I’ve just listened to the KUMB podcast (excellent again, a must listen and not too stat heavy for those worried about that) and it just reinforces for me that we need a plan to move on from Moyes. Not immediately, but I just don’t see it gets better. The results may improve but that isn’t enough for me. The lads on the pod were very balanced, no knee jerk and they explained the fine margins point a few on here have made but the way they set it out just had me cringing about the position we find ourselves in.

“So how do we fix this?”

Was the question put to them. The answer 433, it suits Scamacca, it suits Paqueta, it puts Rice in his natural role, it suits Benrahma who is in form, Fornals can play in the middle or you can take the pressure off Soucek having to create by having him as a forward running number 8, Cornet plays it well and you have the option of playing Downes and moving Rice forward. Oh and we looked good playing it against Forest with half those new signings missing and we actually pressed the ball. Yes I know it was only Forest…

Next question, “So what do you think Moyes will do?”

The answer, back to basics, low block, 343 with inadequate wing backs, hope our set pieces start to click. I cannot do it. I need some hope.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Cuenca 'ammer »

https://www.kumb.com/story.php?id=137383

as usual, a complete breakdown by Jack, Callum and Wilko hosting..

brilliant as per lads..

:thup:
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by El brooko79 »

MB wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:28 pm
From what I have seen, Scamacca is a much better forward but not in our league set up. We either change the set up or it is Haller again if you play him.

“So how do we fix this?”

Was the question put to them. The answer 433, it suits Scamacca, it suits Paqueta, it puts Rice in his natural role, it suits Benrahma who is in form, Fornals can play in the middle or you can take the pressure off Soucek having to create by having him as a forward running number 8, Cornet plays it well and you have the option of playing Downes and moving Rice forward. Oh and we looked good playing it against Forest with half those new signings missing and we actually pressed the ball. Yes I know it was only Forest…

Next question, “So what do you think Moyes will do?”

The answer, back to basics, low block, 343 with inadequate wing backs, hope our set pieces start to click. I cannot do it. I need some hope.
This is also how I see it.
Yep we need to work on possesion and playing as a team higher up the pitch.
Scamacca., Paqueta and Kehrer particularly are not suited to defending deep and countering. If we don't expect to use them properly they are horrendous signings.

Maybe he had tried to grind out results by going back to basics but it's not worked. We have to move forward and use the ball. Otherwise we are kicking a can down the road.

343 categorically doesn't work for us imo, as you say because of the wingbacks. Putting defenders uncomfortable on the ball further upfield only enhances the poor possession problems.

Try Kehrer at RB. Oggy must be ready by Wolves. Use Downes. Get Fornals off the LW.

I'm not ready to give up on Moyes yet.
But with the players he has signed, if he cannot adapt and evolve he will have to move on.
It's not that I even expect "better" football. Its the players that have come in. If he can't properly use the resources he has chosen its on him.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Diogenes »

Cuenca 'ammer wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:48 pm https://www.kumb.com/story.php?id=137383

as usual, a complete breakdown by Jack, Callum and Wilko hosting..

brilliant as per lads..

:thup:
I very much agree (plus their Player Ratings Analysis). More on here should follow their detailed views/opinion based upon real facts and analysis. Indeed, it often provides evidence of what some instinctively feel whilst also totally refuting more biased or uninformed opinion.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Cuenca 'ammer »

I really enjoy the podcasts and the player analysis on games.

now it doesn't always agree with my eye test, BUT it is interesting to see that in most cases the eye test and the analysis are either spot on or in very close proximity overall in player "ratings" (subjective) and the way the game played out.

most people's criticism of Soucek and Coufal on the game thread and the analysis are very close with what the guys discussed.

and they conclude that Moyes overall is or has been a very pragmatic manager.

some people won't agree which, of course, is their prerogative
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by szola »

We have eight games before the world cup break. If we aren't higher than our current position, I suspect someone else will take charge before the Arsenal game.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by hammerman11 »

We need a change of approach. Too negative saving players for what.
Cornet scamacca diwnes need to start now
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by YorksHammer »

MB wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:28 pm “So how do we fix this?”

Was the question put to them. The answer 433, it suits Scamacca, it suits Paqueta, it puts Rice in his natural role, it suits Benrahma who is in form, Fornals can play in the middle or you can take the pressure off Soucek having to create by having him as a forward running number 8, Cornet plays it well and you have the option of playing Downes and moving Rice forward. Oh and we looked good playing it against Forest with half those new signings missing and we actually pressed the ball. Yes I know it was only Forest…
Great Post, MB - and 433 is what most seem to have been saying as the best option with who we have and who we've signed. Whether it was 'only' Forest or not, playing that formation still pretty much led to our best performance this season.

I want to see us use it against Wolves and just see what happens. Because at the moment whenever I see 4231 or 343 on the teamsheet I just think we're already heading for defeat. I also can't believe that we invested the way we did in the summer without some consideration to a system change, especially as (to my knowledge) it's what our two big summer signings in Scamacca and Paqueta played at their former clubs a lot.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by 1895Hammer »

Our performance stats have dropped off a cliff, don’t believe the players are any less fit, modern training and measurement methods just don’t allow that, so why are they running less? A lot of that is probably confidence, that comes in 2 parts, firstly it’s results based pretty obviously, but it’s also a reflection of support for and belief in the system and tactics and it looks as though the players are now questioning what they are asked to do. Maybe that’s because our opposition has reacted to previously successful West Ham tactics and players know it, and maybe it’s the influence of new players who don’t fit the traditional Moyes style. In either case something has to change, the chances of winning while being significantly outworked are slim however much talent you’ve got.
Having bought a number of quicker, better passing, players so far Moyes seems determined to make them fit the old shape, we’ve had enough games now to know it’s not working, and from both a cost and sheer number of players involved viewpoint Moyes has to change things now or face the consequences both to himself and the team. There’s a definition somewhere about doing the same things expecting different results….
A move to a 433 system suits our players, we don’t have wing backs so let’s stop pretending some variation on that shape works. Aguerd will be a big plus but until he returns play two quick full backs who can pass in Kehrer and Emerson, and two solid centre backs, partnering Zouma with Dawson or ideally Oggy in a return to the impressive pairing of early last season if Oggy is back to fitness. Right now Soucek needs a rest, so it’s 3 from 4 in midfield with either Rice or Downes holding plus Paqueta and Fornals. I’d like to see if Downes can replicate his Europa form in the Pl and the next 3 games could be that test, ultimately though Rice is best as a defensive midfielder, and Moyes pandering to his Gerrard ambition and making a player who won’t sign a contract captain has to be addressed at some point. No arguing Declan’s ability and status, but no one player is bigger than the club. Up front play 3 forwards who spend most of their time in the opposition half. Scamacca has to start if we want to play constructive football, Antonio plays lesser games and becomes our last 15-20 minute wrecking ball ( again while difficult to prevent Moyes needs to make it clear to Antonio jetting off to Jamaica friendlies with late return flights at rising 33 isn’t a great way to keep a PL place ) three wider ( not touch line hugging) positions are 2 from 3 in Bowen Benny and Cornet.
Next Saturday will be very interesting, I’m hoping Moyes has reviewed and accepted a need for change, his reluctance to use the players bought in at great expense is increasingly baffling, and continuing with his old “ favourites” despite poor results and performance even more so. Moyes still has credit in the bank, but I suggest no change in plan or result over the next 3 games and we need to be thinking about who comes in after the World Cup.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by goa127 »

It seems England's problems echo our own. Set piece goals have dried up and creativity gone. Are moyes and Southgate making the same mistakes or is it something else
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by hammers92 »

goa127 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:22 am It seems England's problems echo our own. Set piece goals have dried up and creativity gone. Are moyes and Southgate making the same mistakes or is it something else
We’ve bought 8 players, some with a limited understanding of English in a league that’s considered the hardest to play in the world.

Southgate has completely separate issues, no comparison imo.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by szola »

goa127 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:22 am It seems England's problems echo our own. Set piece goals have dried up and creativity gone. Are moyes and Southgate making the same mistakes or is it something else
I don't see too much wrong with England.

Since the Euro final England have played plenty of good games in the world cup qualifiers, tight games against potential world cup winners in Germany and Italy. Only games that have been a real surprise are the ones against Hungary. I'd say complacency. You don't have that in the WC proper.

What you have though is too high expectations.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by goa127 »

szola wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:12 am I don't see too much wrong with England.

Since the Euro final England have played plenty of good games in the world cup qualifiers, tight games against potential world cup winners in Germany and Italy. Only games that have been a real surprise are the ones against Hungary. I'd say complacency. You don't have that in the WC proper.

What you have though is too high expectations.
Except England haven't scored in open play for over 500 minutes of football and look like getting relegated in the nations league. I'd say they have some issues
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Johnny Byrne's Boots »

goa127 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:52 pm Except England haven't scored in open play for over 500 minutes of football and have been relegated in the nations league. I'd say they have some issues
:newthumb:
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by szola »

goa127 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:52 pm Except England haven't scored in open play for over 500 minutes of football and look like getting relegated in the nations league. I'd say they have some issues
Didn't Greece win the Euro without scoring from open play? Can't remember.

I wouøldn't read too much into the Nations league to be honest.
The players were on a low, after losing the final in the worst way possible, then without a proper summer break, they are at it again, and know in the back of their minds that the WC is the target for this year. Not the NL.

I'd still have England as one of the favourites to reach the semis.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Vic_Watson »

szola wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:12 am Since the Euro final England have played plenty of good games in the world cup qualifiers...
Against San Marino, Albania and Andorra.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Vic_Watson »

szola wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:31 pm Didn't Greece win the Euro without scoring from open play?
No.
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