⚽ West Ham Utd 0-2 Leicester City (12/11/22)

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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Leicester City: match thread

Post by stu1 »

Ironing Board wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:55 pm You said it - he looked good against less competent opposition. At this stage he is just a development player. Ideally we would have someone with Soucek’s skill set and with good passing ability, but they cost a hell of a lot of money.
Yet I’ve seen Soucek struggle against the less competent opposition, whilst Downes has looked a cut above them on more than one occasion.

The reality is Moyes hasn’t given Downes the chance to prove whether the team would be better with him over Soucek. To say it would be foolish to give him the chance is a rather bold statement given Soucek’s general form. I’d expect such a statement won’t age well.

Downes has over 150 senior appearances and often been the best player on the pitch in ECL, he’s not an inexperienced youngster, he’s not Coventry. If a new manager comes in it wouldn’t surprise me to see Downes oust Soucek from the starting XI before long.
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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Leicester City: match thread

Post by Colours never run »

jabbaglob123 wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 8:03 pm I think Soucek offers a lot of unsung off the ball defensive work.
But why has he been instructed not to play more advanced? Wasn't that when he was scoring for fun? We've pandered to the development of Rice's midfield game ahead of the health of the team for too long and it has severely impacted Soucek's performances imo.
Glad I'm not the only one to make that same observation, I commented on it being to the detriment to the Team early in the season and nothing has changed my mind on it, only solidified it further.
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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Leicester City: match thread

Post by Burnley Hammer »

Ironing Board wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:30 pm A lot. You have to defend from the front nowadays. If Messi can run around like a beast closing down he should be able to.
I don't really want to discuss Messi...

Paqueta is struggling with the creative side at present, we know that. I'm confident it will start happening for him soon though - he's already top in our squad for the amount of progressive passes per 90 minutes.

In terms of defensive work...
He's 2nd in the squad at the moment in terms of tackles per 90 mins (excl players who haven't managed more than 1 game)
He's 1st in terms of tackles which have resulted in us gaining possession of the ball.
He's 4th in terms of headers won (surprisingly higher than Soucek)
He's 6th in terms of clearances (ahead of Rice, Soucek, and Coufal)
He's 2nd in terms of blocks - incl blocked passes. (Downes tops that one)
Player pressing stats have unfortunately been removed from the site I used, but the last time I looked, Paqueta was topping the charts for those too.

Personally I'd say those look just fine for a number 10... but you think he should be doing more?
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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Leicester City: match thread

Post by stu1 »

jabbaglob123 wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 8:03 pm I think Soucek offers a lot of unsung off the ball defensive work.
But why has he been instructed not to play more advanced? Wasn't that when he was scoring for fun? We've pandered to the development of Rice's midfield game ahead of the health of the team for too long and it has severely impacted Soucek's performances imo.
I don’t think it’s pandering to Rice tbh, I think it’s more a case of Rice trying to drive the team forward and seeing a lot of incompetence in front of him as he feels he has to do it himself.

Although this could be another argument for starting Downes who seems very suited to mopping up in DM, he seems to smell danger and rarely makes a wrong decision.

(For clarity I don’t think Soucek has actually been too bad recently and appreciate I’ve now got a number of posts suggesting replacing Soucek with Downes, but that’s just due to IB’s posting style. He’s successfully pulled me into a completely separate discuss to help deflect away from a different criticism of Moyes.)
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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Leicester City: match thread

Post by stu1 »

Burnley Hammer wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 8:12 pm I don't really want to discuss Messi...
Well done on not letting your point get completely deflected by IB as I have.

:grin:
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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Leicester City: match thread

Post by Ironing Board »

Burnley Hammer wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 8:12 pm I don't really want to discuss Messi...

Paqueta is struggling with the creative side at present, we know that. I'm confident it will start happening for him soon though - he's already top in our squad for the amount of progressive passes per 90 minutes.

In terms of defensive work...
He's 2nd in the squad at the moment in terms of tackles per 90 mins (excl players who haven't managed more than 1 game)
He's 1st in terms of tackles which have resulted in us gaining possession of the ball.
He's 4th in terms of headers won (surprisingly higher than Soucek)
He's 6th in terms of clearances (ahead of Rice, Soucek, and Coufal)
He's 2nd in terms of blocks - incl blocked passes. (Downes tops that one)
Player pressing stats have unfortunately been removed from the site I used, but the last time I looked, Paqueta was topping the charts for those too.

Personally I'd say those look just fine for a number 10... but you think he should be doing more?
Yesterday, yes. And he did up his game significantly in the second half in that respect. And part of it may have been working with Scamacca up there as he was the worst offender yesterday.

But had he busted a guy and chased his man, or at least handed him off before he stopped tracking the run, then we wouldn’t have lost that first goal. Maybe he was caught cold, but it out is in a bad position.
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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Leicester City: match thread

Post by Ironing Board »

stu1 wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 8:15 pm .

(For clarity I don’t think Soucek has actually been too bad recently and appreciate I’ve now got a number of posts suggesting replacing Soucek with Downes, but that’s just due to IB’s posting style. He’s successfully pulled me into a completely separate discuss to help deflect away from a different criticism of Moyes.)
Aha - my Machiavellian masterplan has been exposed! :wink: :lol:

(It’s not that I just drift down pointless rabbitholes!)
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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Leicester City: match thread

Post by Tenbury »

There's a Madhatter down a few.
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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Leicester City: match thread

Post by RaddyKovac »

We've brought in front-foot players like Pacqueta, Scamacca and previously Benrahma. We're then asking them to play a back-foot counter-attacking deep line game. We have a mish-mash of players and tactics.
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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Leicester City: match thread

Post by RaddyKovac »

I also think Rice trying to be Lampard is a joke. Parker dragged the team forward in our Zola escape season but he never neglected his defensive duties. Rice wants the glory of goals. That's not good. That's not his game.

When be moved to Chelsea, Liverpool or Manchester, he'll be a DM anyway.
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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Leicester City: match thread

Post by ParkersHere »

RaddyKovac wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:28 am I also think Rice trying to be Lampard is a joke. Parker dragged the team forward in our Zola escape season but he never neglected his defensive duties. Rice wants the glory of goals. That's not good. That's not his game.

When be moved to Chelsea, Liverpool or Manchester, he'll be a DM anyway.
That is down to the manager. If Rice gets told to play DM he will.
It's clear this move has changed Souceks game.
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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Leicester City: match thread

Post by RaddyKovac »

ParkersHere wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:35 am That is down to the manager. If Rice gets told to play DM he will.
It's clear this move has changed Souceks game.
It's clear he demanded it in return for staying.
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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Leicester City: match thread

Post by S-H »

RaddyKovac wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:43 am It's clear he demanded it in return for staying.
How is it clear?
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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Leicester City: match thread

Post by kitthehammer »

RaddyKovac wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:28 am I also think Rice trying to be Lampard is a joke. Parker dragged the team forward in our Zola escape season but he never neglected his defensive duties. Rice wants the glory of goals. That's not good. That's not his game.

When be moved to Chelsea, Liverpool or Manchester, he'll be a DM anyway.
I'm not sure its so much goals as drop kicks, his finishing is very 50/50
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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Leicester City: match thread

Post by kitthehammer »

can somebody tell me what paqueta's goalscoring has been like or is like for brazil?
is that his job? striker?
on saturday you can give him credit for being in the right place to take a chance to score but he missed all 4 of them.
If that is not his job then is that not saying he is ending up where other players like bowen and scamacca should be?
That's not blaming those players, it's blaming the manager for setting us up incorrectly and ending up with players in the wrong places.
We've spent a fortune on this player and it seems he isn't really the player we needed but we're playing him at the detriment of the rest of the team.
Again that's not having a go at him, i'm just really not sure if he is the player we needed?
we are just not working as a unit and its making us mess up the basics.
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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Leicester City: match thread

Post by Colours never run »

I don't think Paqueta per say is the issue but I am starting to wonder whether he's being played properly. You hear a lot he's a no. 8 and yet we play him always as a No 10. And something doesn't feel right about it.

What is an added layer of problem about it is we can't even work on it in the winter break now losing him to the world cup. With that in mind I'd prefer to take him out the firing line when he returns, partly to give him much needed rest after the world cup. But also to concentrate on who we can work on back home that's available, the likes of Lanzini, Fornals and Benrahma in his absence. Also all these players are well versed in the Club and familiar with everything. We should revisit the Paqueta conundrum at a later date.
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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Leicester City: match thread

Post by one.paulhilton »

Ironing Board wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:07 pm That would be foolish - Downes isn’t fit to lace Tom’s boots at this stage.
That would be Moyes's fault then. Surely he is capable of getting his fitness team to get Downes fit enough to bend over
and tie some laces.
He really has lost the plot.
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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Leicester City: match thread

Post by Hammer.CA »

I saw a friend of mine earlier today, he’s a Leicester season ticket holder and goes to most away games and went on Saturday.
He didn’t think Leicester played that well, he still wants Rodgers out but he said they didn’t need to. He thought Aguerd was awful, he went to Rennes last season and wasn’t impressed by any of their players. He said Ward made 2 good saves but didn’t have a lot else to do, he thought Scammacca was poor but said he was stuck up front on his own with virtually no service and he was very surprised at Soucek as he rated last season, not now.
He didn’t feel like Leicester were ever under any real pressure for the past 20 minutes, couldn’t see us scoring at all. He said Benrahma was our best player by a long way.
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Re: ⚽ West Ham Utd v Leicester City: match thread

Post by Colours never run »

Hammer.CA wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:23 pm I saw a friend of mine earlier today, he’s a Leicester season ticket holder and goes to most away games and went on Saturday.
He didn’t think Leicester played that well, he still wants Rodgers out but he said they didn’t need to. He thought Aguerd was awful, he went to Rennes last season and wasn’t impressed by any of their players. He said Ward made 2 good saves but didn’t have a lot else to do, he thought Scammacca was poor but said he was stuck up front on his own with virtually no service and he was very surprised at Soucek as he rated last season, not now.
He didn’t feel like Leicester were ever under any real pressure for the past 20 minutes, couldn’t see us scoring at all. He said Benrahma was our best player by a long way.
Your Leicester mate saw the game the same as I did...

Incidentally, during the match the Commentator on the link I provided on the Kehrer thread, he said Leicester enjoyed more than 70% of possession within the first 20 minutes of the game. Being the Home side I find it simply not acceptable to start a game almost halfway through the 1st half to be that stand offish and to do it against a Team like Leicester too. Against a Man City Team I could understand it. And I recall the Palace game being very similar in approach, not having our first real effort on goal until Benrahma scored a great goal on the 22nd minute against the run of play. A familiar theme that also happened against Blackburn conceding after just 8 minutes.

These Teams are not Barcelona and yet we give Teams far too much respect as if they are. Away from Home I could understand it more but not at Home. It shouldn't take us that long in a game to get going and yet it continually happens. It has to change.
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