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Ironing Board
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Re: Lucas Paquetá - Our Brazilian Magnifico

Post by Ironing Board »

Gsbgsb wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:34 pm First it is clear Paqueta is not a traditional 10. Second he has real quality to bring out the best in those around him but they need to have both pace and an eye to attack.

Paqueta was fine for Brazil because Casemiro is one of the best holding midfielders on the planet. So is Rice, difference is that Casemiro likes playing that way but Rice wants to do more when he plays for us.

Once we convince Rice that his forays across the half way line are to be limited and it is his primary job to block any gaps centrally then Paqueta can play as he does for Brazil (indeed as Bellingham did for England).

For as long as we pander to Rice’s belief he is more of a Gerrard/Lampard clone than a Busquets/Rodri then we will see the best of neither player.
Sounds like we are more likely to see Soucek and Paq Man if the transfer rumours are to be believed.

BTW what is a traditional no. 10 nowadays? I always think of the little man in a front two, but nobody plays two up top any more. I guess its more of an attacking midfielder in the hole nowadays.
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Re: Lucas Paquetá - Our Brazilian Magnifico

Post by MB »

Gsbgsb wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:34 pm For as long as we pander to Rice’s belief he is more of a Gerrard/Lampard clone than a Busquets/Rodri then we will see the best of neither player.
Are we pandering to Rice or is he the only player we have who can carry the ball from deep?

Have Rice sit with Paqueta and we won’t get across the halfway line. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, we need better fullbacks. Just look how the Brazilian ones played.
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Re: Lucas Paquetá - Our Brazilian Magnifico

Post by WCpete »

Interesting that after Brazils game a lot of people are now thinking, “ooooh, he’s a CM and not a 10. That’s why”

I was listening to Andy Brassel this morning who I think is knowledgable about the game, knows the players well, especially Lucas as Andy is a diehard Lyon supporter as well as a Ligue 1 specialist. He said that it was odd to see Lucas at CM as he is familiar with him playing as a 10. I’d still like to see him next to Declan though. 4231
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Re: Lucas Paquetá - Our Brazilian Magnifico

Post by DusseldorfHammer »

We need Paqueta's creativity higher up the pitch.
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Re: Lucas Paquetá - Our Brazilian Magnifico

Post by 1895Hammer »

MB wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:10 pm Are we pandering to Rice or is he the only player we have who can carry the ball from deep?

Have Rice sit with Paqueta and we won’t get across the halfway line. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, we need better fullbacks. Just look how the Brazilian ones played.
Or even the Moroccans! We just don’t seem to get the importance of full backs in todays game.
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Re: Lucas Paquetá - Our Brazilian Magnifico

Post by El brooko79 »

DusseldorfHammer wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:00 pm We need Paqueta's creativity higher up the pitch.
We need more controlled possesion deeper imo.
I'd have not problem with matching Brazils midfield 3 of Casemiro, Paqueta, Neymar with Rice, Paqueta, Fornals. A 6 and 2 8s. Then a front 3 of Benny, Scamacca, (good) Bowen.

-------------------Scamacca
Benny--------------------------------Bowen
------Fornals-----------------Paqueta
------------------------Rice

Depends how brave we can be. Both Fornals and Paqueta get stuck in.
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Re: Lucas Paquetá - Our Brazilian Magnifico

Post by WCpete »

Maybe Paqueta was brought in to replace Rice. :chin: :winker:
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Re: Lucas Paquetá - Our Brazilian Magnifico

Post by hammer1975 »

Not sure that we can model ourselves on Brazil. The attacking players we have are much less effective at holding on to the ball. Our wide players are much worse at progressing play and joining the attack. Finally a lot of the teams we play are much more talented than the national sides which Brazil play over 50% of the time.

I’m all for playing Paqueta deeper ‘at times’ but dropping him deeper in a 4-2-3-1 is nowhere near the panacea for our ills. I’m sure it would work against some sides - but not all. I’m coming round to the idea that we need a more all round option than Soucek - but think we could do with a player like Thiago Maia (as per Lyon set-up) or Bissouma imo (as opposed to a permanent deeper Paqueta).

I could see him being effective in a 4-3-3 alongside Rice and another all rounder, or in a 3-4-3 with Rice in the middle but with the added insurance of an extra CB behind. Sadly, I think that we lack fullbacks or wingbacks for either of those formations to work at present.

It feels to me that the mixed/half complete transition is quite an issue for us, and Paqueta in particular.
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Re: Lucas Paquetá - Our Brazilian Magnifico

Post by Misko »

WCpete wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:41 pm Interesting that after Brazils game a lot of people are now thinking, “ooooh, he’s a CM and not a 10. That’s why”

I was listening to Andy Brassel this morning who I think is knowledgable about the game, knows the players well, especially Lucas as Andy is a diehard Lyon supporter as well as a Ligue 1 specialist. He said that it was odd to see Lucas at CM as he is familiar with him playing as a 10. I’d still like to see him next to Declan though. 4231
:eh:

Paqueta spent a full season as a CM in a 433 under Garcia. Bosz played him further up on the field as a CAM, but also as a right winger and even as a 9.

We played with a deeper defensive line under Garcia, but looked at any opportunity for fast transition. Paqueta was perfect in that role, working hard but with all the leeway he loves going forward. This was compensated by intelligent players like Thiago Mendes and Bruno Guimaraes.

Last year, with the obsession for possession of Bosz, Paqueta payed in a more offensive position, but with the objective of keeping the ball at all cost, and press hard and fast if it was lost. Collectively, it ended up with this extremely boring tippy tappy play, with all the players jammed in tight areas. Paqueta has the skills and creativity to create space in such situations, but I honestly liked him less than during his first year. Too many touches, too much showboating... I preferred the more direct style of his first year here.
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Re: Lucas Paquetá - Our Brazilian Magnifico

Post by MB »

hammer1975 wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:37 pm
It feels to me that the mixed/half complete transition is quite an issue for us, and Paqueta in particular.
Completely agree with the rest of your post, but this in particular is the key for me. If you try and fit in the new boys in what you expect are their best roles/formation then it just causes problems elsewhere (mostly at full back/wing back as you flag). So instead we are back to square pegs and round holes.

Paqueta can and has played 10, but he isn’t a 10 in a side who have so little ball as us. Same way Scamacca can play the lone frontman role but not when the wide players are in a different postcode.

All half finished and confused as you say.
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Re: Lucas Paquetá - Our Brazilian Magnifico

Post by 1895Hammer »

MB wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:52 am Completely agree with the rest of your post, but this in particular is the key for me. If you try and fit in the new boys in what you expect are their best roles/formation then it just causes problems elsewhere (mostly at full back/wing back as you flag). So instead we are back to square pegs and round holes.

Paqueta can and has played 10, but he isn’t a 10 in a side who have so little ball as us. Same way Scamacca can play the lone frontman role but not when the wide players are in a different postcode.

All half finished and confused as you say.
Yep, comes back to no clear decision on what shape we’re adopting, and players asked to play unfamiliar, and often unsuited roles. We are a bit of a mess right now, and Moyes seems to be struggling to integrate some very talented individuals. You have to wonder who and how the transfer recruitment was planned, and even if we do change manager how a new man would complete the puzzle. Think most of us agree 2 top quality full backs would make a lot of difference, but if Zouma’s injury is long term added to issues with Dawson and Oggy the centre back rota is probably top priority in January. Oh for some cohesive squad management !
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Re: Lucas Paquetá - Our Brazilian Magnifico

Post by waynepin »

this debate does it mean Moyes does not know where his players best positions are? so we should list from defenders to the front line where we think they are best and where Moyes plays them, some like Scamacca are simple, but Fornals, Benny, Antonio, Johnson ,Kehrer, even cresswell back 3 or back 5, it would be interesting what the majority thought and how the team would line up and what system
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Re: Lucas Paquetá - Our Brazilian Magnifico

Post by hammer1975 »

Totally agree with points about ‘half finished’.

Thought occurred to me whilst watching England last night (my brain wasn’t entertained by the game so started to wander).

If you were Moyes at the end of the last season and you knew:
- the club was willing to give you £150m in the summer
- you’re then likely to have another £100m the following summer with Rice going
- you were confident you couldn’t replace Rice with the same quality
- teams had started to work you out style-wise
- you had an ageing old-guard

Do you try to do the whole transformation in one summer? Or do you try to take a two-step strategy?

I wonder if he’s gone for option 2 - and we’ve dropped off far more than expected during our ‘mid-build’. Paqueta could be one of the key building blocks - but arrived one summer early…..
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Re: Lucas Paquetá - Our Brazilian Magnifico

Post by cadiz_hammer »

To change the direction of the conversation, just discovered this, from the below Twitter account, posted last month just before the Brazilian elections...

"Após Neymar, Lucas Paquetá é mais um jogador da Seleção Brasileira a anunciar apoio à Jair Bolsonaro nas eleições. 👀"
Translated from Portuguese...
"After Neymar, Lucas Paquetá is another player from the Brazilian national team to announce support for Jair Bolsonaro in the elections. 👀"

https://mobile.twitter.com/paisoltaram
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Re: Lucas Paquetá - Our Brazilian Magnifico

Post by Hugh Jargon »

So far. From what I've seen. Not impressed for either club or country.
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Re: Lucas Paquetá - Our Brazilian Magnifico

Post by DannyboyDJL »

Hugh Jargon wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:47 pm So far. From what I've seen. Not impressed for either club or country.
Agree. What is he? He doesn't beat a man, doesn't take free kicks, doesn't shoot and his passing is all over the shop. He plays the odd good first time pass, but he just seems to roam about and not really do anything.
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Re: Lucas Paquetá - Our Brazilian Magnifico

Post by hammers92 »

There was a pass in the 12th minute when he played the ball first time through the defence with Richarlinson running on to it. He knew the pass was coming so got on his bike and made the run and that kind of sums up where I am on him.

I think half the reason is that our attacking players are not on his level and don’t anticipate the pass which slows our game up and the opportunity is gone. The second is we’re asking him to slot into how we play instead of having the side built round him. I just don’t think we can accommodate him if we don’t do the second of those options.
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Re: Lucas Paquetá - Our Brazilian Magnifico

Post by DannyboyDJL »

hammers92 wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:11 pm There was a pass in the 12th minute when he played the ball first time through the defence with Richarlinson running on to it. He knew the pass was coming so got on his bike and made the run and that kind of sums up where I am on him.

I think half the reason is that our attacking players are not on his level and don’t anticipate the pass which slows our game up and the opportunity is gone. The second is we’re asking him to slot into how we play instead of having the side built round him. I just don’t think we can accommodate him if we don’t do the second of those options.
It's nowhere near enough for £50m+. I've genuinely not seen him make any pass that Noble didn't do week in week out.
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Re: Lucas Paquetá - Our Brazilian Magnifico

Post by Burnley Hammer »

DannyboyDJL wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:06 pm What is he?

a midfielder

He doesn't beat a man,

He's not really a dribbler, no - although I expect you'll see a little more in terms of skill once he's settled in more, and him and his team-mates are playing with a little more confidence.

doesn't take free kicks,

Correct. I imagine our set-piece takers are decided by the manager.

doesn't shoot

Yes he does

and his passing is all over the shop.

On the whole, his passing hasn't been bad. His completion rate is good and he passes forward more than most. Through balls and the more complex attempts at creative passes don't always come off. They're never all going to come off... that's the nature of those type of passes. I do feel that things will start happening more though once he builds a proper rapport with his team-mates, and the team starts playing with a bit more confidence again. It's still early days and I believe that he hasn't yet started 10 games.

He plays the odd good first time pass,

He does, yes.

but he just seems to roam about and not really do anything.

Apart from working hard, putting in a decent defensive shift, winning headers, attempting tackles, and making more presses than anyone else in the team. If he's still settling in and things aren't quite happening for him yet then the least you want is him putting in a shift - which I think he does. I'd be a lot more concerned if he was just strolling around the pitch looking disinterested.
Maybe we just need to be a little more patient and show a bit more support whilst he's attempting to settle and adapt around a team low in confidence and with multiple key players out of form.
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Re: Lucas Paquetá - Our Brazilian Magnifico

Post by lincolnhammer1963 »

Another playing coming back to club football who's using this world cup to regain his confidence.
Not.

Its not looking great is it.
Kehrer and pacqueta :thdn:

Now Enner Valencia different gravy
Football, its a funny old game
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