The Energy Crisis

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mumbles87
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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by mumbles87 »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:05 pm But are they subsidising others bills or paying admin costs for the system they are using? Paying on receipt costs more as well because there is more work administering it.

DD you (used to) get a discount because it's relatively automatic to process. No bills to post out, no chasing up, no payment machines to pay for etc.
The system in which they can't use unless they top it up? And if smart meter can be done remotely?
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SammyLeeWasOffside
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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

mumbles87 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:08 pm The system in which they can't use unless they top it up? And if smart meter can be done remotely?
I'm not entirely sure what point you are trying to make mumbles. Tenners said prepayment subsidised everyone elses bills, you said their costs are higher than anyone else.

Right now they are neither subsidising nor paying more than others. Unless I'm missing something in the billing info

There is an argument (which I said at the start) that when the cutthroat DD offers were flying about they were subsidised by people not on those offers. Again though this wasn't just prepayment customers.
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mumbles87
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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by mumbles87 »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:20 pm I'm not entirely sure what point you are trying to make mumbles. Tenners said prepayment subsidised everyone elses bills, you said their costs are higher than anyone else.

Right now they are neither subsidising nor paying more than others. Unless I'm missing something in the billing info

There is an argument (which I said at the start) that when the cutthroat DD offers were flying about they were subsidised by people not on those offers. Again though this wasn't just prepayment customers.
You missed the point in your own post for crying out loud

Under the price cap it's £60 more per year for them so they are paying more.

That's fact.

The poorest are being charged the most. Fact.

And remember a cap isn't a limit .. https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... march-2023

There unit rate for gas (which is the costly one) is higher on average than direct debit

That's the point you keep missing

There rate is higher...

Standing charge normally higher aswell.
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alf git
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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by alf git »

Don't make the mistake of assuming that everyone with a pre pay meter is "poor".
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SammyLeeWasOffside
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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

mumbles87 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:30 pm You missed the point in your own post for crying out loud

Under the price cap it's £60 more per year for them so they are paying more.

That's fact.

The poorest are being charged the most. Fact.

And remember a cap isn't a limit .. https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... march-2023

There unit rate for gas (which is the costly one) is higher on average than direct debit

That's the point you keep missing

There rate is higher...

Standing charge normally higher aswell.
Ok from that link prepayment is higher for gas than DD but cheaper for electric, it's cheaper for both than the standard credit. Cash and cheque standing charges are higher than prepayment ones. You could say standard credit customers paying by cheque are subsidising prepayment customers. Even at a pound a week more than the DD cap prepay customers are hardly subsidising everyone else's bill.

As you say the cap isn't a limit so it's perfectly possible some people on direct debit are paying more in total than some people on prepayment. That's just people using more though, use more pay more isn't unfair.

Gas the expensive one?
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mumbles87
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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by mumbles87 »

alf git wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:49 pm Don't make the mistake of assuming that everyone with a pre pay meter is "poor".
That's the point worth picking up on? Not the fact that the poorest pay more. Not all on pre pay are poor but more poor people are on pre payment than not

They are charged more

Simple as that.
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mumbles87
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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by mumbles87 »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:55 pm Ok from that link prepayment is higher for gas than DD but cheaper for electric, it's cheaper for both than the standard credit. Cash and cheque standing charges are higher than prepayment ones. You could say standard credit customers paying by cheque are subsidising prepayment customers. Even at a pound a week more than the DD cap prepay customers are hardly subsidising everyone else's bill.

As you say the cap isn't a limit so it's perfectly possible some people on direct debit are paying more in total than some people on prepayment. That's just people using more though, use more pay more isn't unfair.

Gas the expensive one?
Anyone who uses gas to heat their home will feel the pinch from just a 1p rise in gas.

People on average use 3000 KW electric per year and 12000kw gas.


Each 1p being £120 .. people just sit in the cold and run out of credit sooner..

Electric is 34p it has risen 20p
Gas is 10p it had risen 8 p

A £600 rise per year electric but a £960 rise in gas
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Danny's Dyer Acting
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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by Danny's Dyer Acting »

One thing that's worth remembering when discussing the enforced installation of a prepayment meter is that, not only is the standing charge/unit price more expensive, but it is usually also set up to collect the outstanding debt. The debt gets 'collected' before the customer gets any energy. This is one of the main reason many end up effectively self-disconnecting.

As an example (and using simple numbers to illustrate), take a person who has a debt of £200, and their prepayment meter is set to collect £7 a week.

This means the meter is taking £1 per day from your credit. Now, let's say the customer is ill or has an unexpected expense that means they need to use their £10 emergency credit on the meter.

They use this over 6 days, with the meter effectively taking £6 of it for the debt, before they run out. They go without energy for 2 more days before they are able to top up.

To get their energy back they now need to replace the £10 emergency credit, and pay an additional £2 to cove the accrued debt for the time they had no energy.

So, say, a £15 top up buys them £3 worth of energy, with the debt being clawed back daily (so, even with minimal usage, they are going to run out again in 2 days or so).
So we force people in financial difficulty into a system like this? Great work :thup:
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mumbles87
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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by mumbles87 »

Danny's Dyer Acting wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:04 pm So we force people in financial difficulty into a system like this? Great work :thup:
DW Sammy will be along to explain how it's only a little more and not a problem.
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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by alf git »

Danny's Dyer Acting wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:04 pm So we force people in financial difficulty into a system like this? Great work :thup:
If that is saying that debt is recovered from the emergency credit then it doesn't. Debt is recovered from top ups.
I've got pre payment meters and fit meters for a living. However this particular discussion is only going one way so I'll leave it to the experts.
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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

mumbles87 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:03 pm Anyone who uses gas to heat their home will feel the pinch from just a 1p rise in gas.

People on average use 3000 KW electric per year and 12000kw gas.


Each 1p being £120 .. people just sit in the cold and run out of credit sooner..

Electric is 34p it has risen 20p
Gas is 10p it had risen 8 p

A £600 rise per year electric but a £960 rise in gas
Anyone who uses electric to heat their homes will also be feeling the pinch. Is gas more efficient? Is it cheaper to heat your home and cook with gas or electric?

The rest of the post is a different argument. You are arguing about the system, I'm saying prepayment doesn't subsidise everyone else's bill.
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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

mumbles87 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:09 pm DW Sammy will be along to explain how it's only a little more and not a problem.
That's a complete misrepresentation of anything I have said. I'm saying it doesn't subsidise everyone else's bill. I haven't commented on the system being right or wrong. Please don't take what I say and apply it to things I haven't talked about.
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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

mumbles87 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:56 pm That's the point worth picking up on? Not the fact that the poorest pay more. Not all on pre pay are poor but more poor people are on pre payment than not

They are charged more

Simple as that.
Pay on receipt you are charged more, pay by cheque you are charged more, live in certain areas of the country you are charged more. Pay by direct debit and they build up a surplus and keep your interest.

Nobody is getting picked on, everyone gets screwed.
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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by Tenbury »

Fair enough,stick everyone on a prepayment meter.
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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by delbert »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:49 pm Pay on receipt you are charged more, pay by cheque you are charged more, live in certain areas of the country you are charged more. Pay by direct debit and they build up a surplus and keep your interest.

Nobody is getting picked on, everyone gets screwed.
Which is why I asked to go onto a prepayment meter.

If you top up by small amounts at a time you can get a really good measure of your usage and adjust accordingly, it's probably saved us a fortune over the years. The main downside for us is remembering to bung a load on if we're buggering off on holiday........
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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by mumbles87 »

delbert wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:34 pm Which is why I asked to go onto a prepayment meter.

If you top up by small amounts at a time you can get a really good measure of your usage and adjust accordingly, it's probably saved us a fortune over the years. The main downside for us is remembering to bung a load on if we're buggering off on holiday........
But that's your choice. You can afford to do that without worrying.

Imagine your broke and it's £20 to put the heating on or eat for the week

That £20 for the meter could be gone on food before you know it and you can't afford to put on.

These people shouldn't pay more than those who can afford direct debit
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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

Tenbury wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:00 pm Fair enough,stick everyone on a prepayment meter.
Right now they may as well.

To be fair I pay my DD before I get the bill so technically am I pre paying?
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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by Samba »

Danny's Dyer Acting wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:51 pm Great reporting this. Times reporter goes undercover with a firm of debt collectors that are taking on contracts from British Gas to force entry to people's homes and fit prepay meters.
'After being approached for comment, British Gas suspended the practice of force-fitting prepayment meters. It began an investigation into the “deeply concerning” findings, adding: “This is not who we are — it’s not how we do business”, they lied..
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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by Tenbury »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:00 pm Right now they may as well.

To be fair I pay my DD before I get the bill so technically am I pre paying?
A fair point. I'm not sure we're that far apart on this. Surely, what is needed above all is clarity and fairness. If they need some people to be on prepayment meters, then everyone should be on one.
[ The companies would lose all interest accrued on the overpayment people make as a result of DD based on their estimated bills, but hey ho, I don't see their CEOs heading towards the nearest food bank anytime soon..]
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Re: The Energy Crisis

Post by EvilC »

Tenbury wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 7:24 am A fair point. I'm not sure we're that far apart on this. Surely, what is needed above all is clarity and fairness. If they need some people to be on prepayment meters, then everyone should be on one.
Why? They want people on prepayment meters that they perceive to be more likely not to pay them.

Prepayment is a less convenient solution for everyone. You'll also need to replace millions of meters, which just isn't practical.
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