The Sunak Government 2022-

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MB
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by MB »

Baron Von Marlon wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:02 pm If you solely use private medical care and/or private schooling, should you be liable for a tax rebate?

For private schooling, If VAT was added…
No, because that isn't how taxation works and it breaks the social contract.

You either have everything pay at point of service or nothing. If you choose to go private then it is exactly that your choice. The state is still required to ensure there is provision for you and your family at hospital/school.

That safety net (even if it is a bit dusty and there are a few holes) is always there and has to be funded.
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by bubbles1966 »

There is no reason why many people should not be given a Personal Education Budget for their children and allowed to tailor their child's education to their individual needs and preferences.

This behaviour is common practice in the delivery of childcare, social care, healthcare - where people are supplied with state funds but opt out of state ordained provision. They just have to operate within certain frameworks and to mandatory minimums.

It would provide greater freedom and flexibility around provision, whilst an intelligently used budget would probably blend a mixture of mass classroom learning/ e-learning/self learning and some targeted 1:1 provision as well having a broader outlook than just the national curriculum. It would also allow for some levels of scheduling flexibility and poor/unsuitable providers could be more easily replaced.
Last edited by bubbles1966 on Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by Big George »

bubbles1966 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:47 am There is no reason why many people should not be given a Personal Education Budget for their children and allowed to tailor their child's education to their individual needs and preferences.

This behaviour is common practice in the delivery of childcare, social care, healthcare - where people are supplied with state funds but opt out of state ordained provision. They just have to operate within certain frameworks and to mandatory minimums.

There's lots of reasons. Decent state education for all isn't a transactional concept. It benefits all of society. Anything that takes money from the comprehensive sector and transfers it to the moral abyss of private education is a bad thing. Thatcher floated education vouchers and soon realised it was a silly idea.
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by bubbles1966 »

Big George wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:55 am There's lots of reasons. Decent state education for all isn't a transactional concept. It benefits all of society. Anything that takes money from the comprehensive sector and transfers it to the moral abyss of private education is a bad thing. Thatcher floated education vouchers and soon realised it was a silly idea.
It would still be state funded education and require an element of sticking to a framework with things such as English, Maths and IT as mandatory learning.

It is, as I say, common practice in childcare, social care and healthcare - especially complex healthcare, to move to personalisation.
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by mumbles87 »

Bend it like Repka wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:16 am Forget the world, even the local education system isn't fair. A city or region is not divided equally, some schools have a better records than others due to the demographic that fills them. That is not intended to be a snobbish outlook, it is just a fact. Parents (not all obviously) in some areas have a different work ethic, a different outlook, and as a result some schools don't perform as well as others in the region. You can raise extra money from public schools all you want, but it won't change those demographics. So if you are living in the catchment areas with the "worst" performing schools in your region getting your kid into a private school becomes an attractive choice. These are the people you punish the most with your tax.
Again returns to investment and management. The state should be providing excellent education for all. Failing schools should be brought up the standard correctly .

As George says a good educational system from the state benefits the entire country

Yes the tax would hurt yourself I'm not saying it wouldn't but the reason we are where we are is from running schools into the ground and parents being forced to make that decision as opposed to the government actually fixing the problem in the fix place

Treating the symptoms not the root cause
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by Bend it like Repka »

mumbles87 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:10 am Again returns to investment and management. The state should be providing excellent education for all. Failing schools should be brought up the standard correctly .
Schools fail for many reasons. Well paid heads can make poor decisions. The demographic may mean that however much money you put in they will still end up with lower results. Some failing schools can take years to turn around. Again if you are in that catchment and you take away choice then you punish the wrong people and children.

What you will end up with is private schools full of only rich privileged kids. Certainly that is not the case in my area at present.

Alternatively you could have a meritocracy system of schooling and invent a system that provides different tiers of learning tailored to a childs needs. Maybe you could call them Grammar schools.

Hang on...... :chin:
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

mumbles87 wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:10 am Again returns to investment and management. The state should be providing excellent education for all. Failing schools should be brought up the standard correctly .
Firstly how? There are only so many good teachers, every kid can't have the best teacher in the school never mind the country, so every education is different. TBH I would fund education more than the NHS but if you made teachers the best paid people in the country you couldn't guarantee every school would succeed. Plus success is a relative thing depending on each child.

Secondly what qualifies as an excellent education really? Is it to supply industry or give every child the freedom to try and be what they want to be at 13, 16, 18, 21? Is it academic, practical, social or physical? Does it go at the speed of the best or the worst in a class - do you have sets and selection?
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by Oldun »

I haven’t really followed the discussion on private education but as someone who passed my 11 plus but didn’t go to East Ham grammar because I didn’t want to wear short trousers at 11 and to be quite honest my parents didn’t really care where I went.
All my family worked in the docks and that’s all I wanted to do ,so I went to the local comprehensive and I just become one of the many who just went to school but learnt little,there was a lot of bright boys who went to school with me and left without anything.
For example my brother in law who I went to school with left school at 15 bummed around at various jobs before working for Newham council who then took every opportunity given to him and went to use the council to pay for his education and finally became a Chartered surveyor with letters after his name ,it was always in him but no one at school helped him.
As for me I finally got my job in docks and enjoyed a 47 year career there earning good money but deep down I hated myself for not getting a better education and made sure my son was not going to go the same way.
He only went to the local comprehensive and did well in his O levels then carried on to do A levels with the hope of going to university and this was because we backed him all the way with support and making sure he had everything he needed .
He didn’t do well in his A levels because of he didn’t knuckle down despite my threats to pull him out of school if he didn’t improve,when he got his results he’s thoughts of university disappeared and we made sure he went straight up the city and found a job ,which he did ,he also saw the openings and is now a Vice President at Citi Bank.
You don’t always need to go to the best school but you do need someone to help you and I always have believed if someone wants to learn and succeed it doesn’t matter what school you go to .
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by Tenbury »

I think that's true, but often that support comes from individual teachers and/or the school itself.

During my all too brief foray into the teaching profession I spent a year at a school ( late1970s) in the very roughest area of Barnsley. Back then there were designated areas of deprivation that got (a lot) of extra education funding. As such they could afford to employ higher pay scale grade teachers in positions you wouldn't usually find them, and expand the curriculum/ facilities etc. Each child at that school, almost without exception, achieved both academically and socially the most they possibly could. I taught at a couple of other decent schools( Thatcher ensured that anything other than temp contracts for new teachers were a rarity) none were poor, but the first was in a different league, all down to funding.
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by Danny's Dyer Acting »

https://news.sky.com/story/mps-should-b ... s-12805908

Interesting timing for a report that strongly pushes the idea of paying failed MPs more money when they lose their seats. Almost like some people are worried about the future.
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

Which school were you at tenners?
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by Monkeybubbles »

I'M NOT IN ANY WAY SAYING THAT IT APPLIES TO ANYONE ON HERE AND I'M AWARE IT'S A GENERALISATION, but in my limited experience it's often the case that parents send their kids to private schools so that they can feel good about themselves by saying "I did the best I could for my kids" without ever having to invest time, energy and money into being a parent. You've got one job while you're on the planet and that's to make new people and, hopefully, make them better than you. If you can't be arsed to make a go of it, you deserve to pay a massive premium. You may say I'm a dreamer.

EDIT: I'm also aware that it's off topic. Sorry.
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by Tenbury »

Sammy,
Now you're asking ( I'm old, and quite a bits happened since!) It may have been Springwell, anyway the Dept Head, a remarkable woman, was called Julie Rodgers, or JR(geddit?) and the head of History was a massive local bloke with sideburns called Stan Hutchinson. The whole set up was so good, and the staff were so professional, that I was persuaded quickly that I would only ever be a crap teacher, and I quit the profession 2 yrs later.
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

Stan Hutch was from the same village as me, ran our pub football team for decades.
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by Monkeybubbles »

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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

Monkeybubbles wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:42 pm
Lol played a few school matches on that field
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by Bend it like Repka »

Monkeybubbles wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:18 pm I'M NOT IN ANY WAY SAYING THAT IT APPLIES TO ANYONE ON HERE AND I'M AWARE IT'S A GENERALISATION, but in my limited experience it's often the case that parents send their kids to private schools so that they can feel good about themselves by saying "I did the best I could for my kids" without ever having to invest time, energy and money into being a parent. You've got one job while you're on the planet and that's to make new people and, hopefully, make them better than you. If you can't be arsed to make a go of it, you deserve to pay a massive premium. You may say I'm a dreamer.
From my experience, you are way off beam. All the parents I know take a keen interest in their kids, attend all events etc.

Mind you I do agree with boarding, which is something I don't get. A few girls in my eldest's year are boarders whose parents live in London. I just can't get that at all, it's like the school run is just far too much hassle. The decision to have kids and then ship them off for long periods of time is very strange to me.
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by MB »

Bend it like Repka wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:13 pm From my experience, you are way off beam. All the parents I know take a keen interest in their kids, attend all events etc.

Mind you I do agree with boarding, which is something I don't get. A few girls in my eldest's year are boarders whose parents live in London. I just can't get that at all, it's like the school run is just far too much hassle. The decision to have kids and then ship them off for long periods of time is very strange to me.
Yeah bordering school is a different level of “I don’t want to parent”. Haven’t met anyone who has been through one and isn’t messed up. Ditto kids who got into top private schools on scholarships. They all seemed to have a worse time with bullying etc than I did at the local comp.
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by Tenbury »

Private education (IMO), some of which it's worth noting, is extremely poor value for money, merely perpetuates a lack of social cohesion. The fact that it's subsidised by the tax payer is borderline farcicle.
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by bubbles1966 »

Bend it like Repka wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:13 pm From my experience, you are way off beam.
I agree.

A family friend I've known over 40 years ended up being sent to private school age 7/8, funded by her grandparents, after being repeatedly bullied at an east end state school for sounding different. Ironically, she's a teacher in the state system now.
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