Government "fan-led" review/ Regulator/White paper

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the pink palermo
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Re: Government "fan-led" review/ Regulator/White paper

Post by the pink palermo »

Doc H Ball wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:01 pm Whilst I agree with what you’re getting at, who else?
That's the nub of it, who else indeed?

However, the absence of an alternative shouldn't elevate the FSA to a position where they are effectively shaping the Governance of the English game imo. What qualifies them to speak on behalf of for example Tottenham and Scunthorpe ? Two clubs and two sets of supporters with very different needs, meaning that whatever the FSA concoct with HMG will inevitably be a compromise that doesn't quite work for one or the other, or possibly both.

Will the FSA ask the regulator to have a different discussion with the 15 -count 'em, separate supporters groups that are either associates or affiliates to the FSA on behalf of the supporters of West Ham United ?

Why should the FSA get to pick who they point the regulator in the direction of?

Surely that is a matter for West Ham United supporters?

And we, as a club, are hardly alone in having multiple touch points with the FSA. Everton, by the way, have 17 different supporters groups, not all FSA associates or affiliates, do those who are not simply lose a voice?

It's clear the FSA prefer supporters Trusts, but why?

On what basis? Membership numbers? -hardly.

I'd be interested to add up the membership numbers of every PL clubs Supporter trusts, and just see how many PL football supporters the FSA is really speaking for ?

I'm betting no more than 5,000 out of 500,000 that go every week, so 1%.

That's the stark reality of the "who else" situation, and my fear is we replace one set of shoddy governance with another.

If we are wishing to take reform and supporter representation seriously, surely each club should have a ballot into which every supporters group can field candidates, and supporters get a vote which supporters group they wish to be represented by, and that is to whom the regulator should speak. The FSA can of course continue to have a dialogue with all supporters groups, so their position remains unchanged from now.


PREMIER LEAGUE

AFC Bournemouth

Cherries Trust (Affiliate)
Talking Cherries (Associate)

Arsenal
Arsenal Disabled Supporters’ Association (Associate)
Arsenal Independent Supporters’ Association (Affiliate)
Arsenal Supporters’ Trust (Affiliate)
REDaction (Associate)

Aston Villa
Aston Villa Disabled Supporters Association (Associate)
Aston Villa Supporters’ Trust (Affiliate)
AVFC History (Associate)
AVFC The Religion (Associate)
My Old Man Said (Associate)
Project B6 (Associate)
The AVFC Faithful (Associate)
Under a Gaslit Lamp (Associate)
Villa Bellas (Associate)
villafan.com (Associate)
Villans Together (Associate)

Brentford
Bees United (Affiliate)
Beesotted (Associate)
Brentford Independent Association of Supporters (Affiliate)
Griffin Park Grapevine (Associate)
LGBeeT (Associate)

Brighton and Hove Albion
Brighton & Hove Albion Supporters’ Club (Affiliate)
North West Sussex Seagulls (Associate)

Chelsea
Chelsea FanCast (Associate)
Chelsea Pride (Associate)
Chelsea Supporters’ Club (Affiliate)
Chelsea Supporters’ Club (Nigeria Branch) (Associate)
Chelsea Supporters’ Trust (Affiliate)

Crystal Palace
Crystal Palace Supporters’ Trust (Affiliate)

Everton
EFC Fans Advisory Board (Associate)
Everton Fans’ Forum (Associate)
Everton Supporters’ Club (Harrogate Branch) (Associate)
Everton Supporters’ Club (South Wales Branch) (Associate)
Rainbow Toffees Everton LGBT Supporters’ Group (Associate)
SATIS (Associate)
The Blue Union (Associate)

Fulham
Fulham Lillies (Associates)
Fulham Supporters’ Trust (Affiliate)

Leeds United
Blackpool Whites Leeds United Supporters (Associate)
Leeds Fans Community Benefit Society Ltd (Affiliate)
Leeds United Supporters’ Club (Associate)
Leeds United Supporters’ Club (Benelux Branch) (Associate)
Leeds United Supporters’ Trust (Affiliate)
Marching Out Together (Associate)
Punjabi Whites (Associate)

Leicester City
Foxes Trust (Affiliate)
Leicester 4 All (Associate)
Union FS (Associate)

Liverpool
Deshi Reds (Associate)
Liverpool FC Disabled Supporters’ Association (Associate)
Liverpool Supporters’ Club (Deeside Branch) (Associate)
Spirit of Shankly (Affiliate)
White Rose Reds (Associate)

Manchester City
1894 Group (Affiliate)
Canal Street Blues (Associate)
MCFC Fans’ Foodbank Support (Associate)
Manchester City Supporters’ Club (1949) (Affiliate)

Manchester United
Manchester United Supporters’ Club (Bridgewater & South West Branch) (Associate)
Manchester United Supporters’ Club (Chester & North Wales Branch) (Associate)
Manchester United Supporters’ Club (Oxford & Banbury Branch) (Associate)
Manchester United Supporters’ Trust (Affiliate)

Newcastle United
Hopeless Football Romantic (Associate)
Newcastle United Supporters’ Club (London Branch) (Associate)
Newcastle United Supporters’ Trust (Affiliate)
NUFC Est 2023 (Associate)
NUFC Fans’ Foodbank (Associate)
True Faith (Associate)
Wor Flags (Associate)

Nottingham Forest
Nottingham Forest Disabled Supporters’ Association (DSA) (Associate)
Nottingham Forest Supporters’ Club (Affiliate)
Nottingham Forest Supporters’ Trust (Affiliate)
Punjabi Forest (Associate)

Southampton
Saints’ Disabled Supporters Association (Affiliate)
The Ugly Inside (Associate)

Tottenham Hotspur
Abuja Spurs (Associate)
Proud Lilywhites (Associate)
Spurs Reach (Associate)
Tottenham Hotspur Supporters’ Trust (Affiliate)

West Ham United
Claret and Hugh (Associate)
Hammers United (Affiliate)
Hornchurch Coaches (Associate)
Inclusive Irons (Affiliate)
Irons Supporting Foodbanks (Associate)
Knees Up Mother Brown (Associate)
Old School Hammers (Affiliate)
Pride of Irons (Affiliate)
Transpennine Irons (Associate)
West Ham Fans United Over Land and Sea (Associate)
West Ham FC Supporters’ Club (Associate)
West Ham United FC Group (Associate)
West Ham United Official Supporters’ Board (Associate)
West Ham United Supporters’ Club (Affiliate)
West Ham United Supporters’ Trust (Affiliate)

Wolverhampton Wanderers
Punjabi Wolves (Associate)
Wolverhampton Wanderers Supporters’ Club (London Branch) (Associate)
Wolves 1877 Trust (Affiliate)


Doc H Ball wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:01 pm Better the FSA than nobody and better a Regulator than the unbridled marketers we presently have. If it fecks them off then that alone is a plus.
The problem with this is who actually funds the game?

Much of this has come about because club after club keeps going skint, and it's existence is threatened. Supporters then play the community asset card, say how terrible it all is, but who is paying the bills, who is injecting the funding to prevent the club actually going under?

How will the existence of a regulator avoid that? Can a regulator suddenly remove the £1.4bn of debt the EFL clubs are drowning in?

The point the likes of Parry were missing is that it is not just the EFL clubs that live beyond their means trying to win the ticket to the pl, it's most of the top flight as well.

Wage cap? Might work, but the threat is they kill the PL goose that doesn't quite lay the egg, but create a situation whereby every club is skint as the PL loses it's global position. In essence the PL becomes a league stuffed with clubs like Barca, real and Juventus, desperate for money, and willing to sacrifice any and everything to get it.

Doc H Ball wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:01 pm And, yes, Tesco shareholders should pay at least as much if not more in tax than the corner shop or pay a community charge to stop small businesses valued by local societies going out of business due to the unfair playing ground, but that’s a different point.
I see where you are coming from but in sporting terms that is moving us too close to the American draft system where the weak get first pick etc imo.

The idea of a regulator intrigues me as I'm baffled as to how they will establish a framework in which all professional clubs will adhere, where the gap in income is so vast as to make them completely different sports.

Perhaps it's time to get really radical, question whether the English game can legitimately sustain the existing pyramid structure, or whether we are now at the point of having to introduce two professional divisions that can be regulated to some extent, and the remainder of the game goes amateur.

What I'm very clear about is the game absolutely needs to split the professional and amateur games, completely.

The game changed forever with the advent of the PL, that was the moment the FA lost control of the professional game, it needs to own up and recognise that.
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Re: Government "fan-led" review/ Regulator/White paper

Post by Big George »

I think thr FSF are a good thing. As someone who has tried it (and I know both Pinky and Doc have too) trying to organise any football fans into some sort of co-ordinated campagns is impossible. West Ham has traditionally had a piss poor record on suppoorter campaigning but possibly the only thing about the :thdn: show that was the migration that it woke people up to what could be achieved.

Do I think they are perefect? No. Do I think they have a bloody difficult job? Yes.

Their reason for exisiting is to engage with clubs, the Premier League and football in genreal. West Ham and other organsiations take the first opportunity to denegage if they can find an excuse to. Karren, Tara and Jake were masters of that. Disagree with what they present and up go the shutters. It's trying to neogatiate with a petulant, over sensitive and truculant rottweiler. I can't imagine the PL aren't much better.

They are broad based membership organisation and their stength comes from that breadth and the numbers that brings. People involved s have fought for 20 years to get any sort of representation.

The work they try and do with Police and standing up to people like Chief Cinstable Mark Roberts, with people who get arressted and in campaigns like twenty's plenty and safe standing has been truely valuable.

Dealing with clubs and the PL is a soul destroying thankless buisness. Dealing with government on football even worse.

I think the FSF deserve at least our thanks, if not our praise for the small differences they have made and for having the presistence and ambition to make bigger ones.
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Re: Government "fan-led" review/ Regulator/White paper

Post by the pink palermo »

George, I'm not against the FSA, I'm against them determining who amongst our supporter a regulator should speak to.

They do, of course have a place in the game, perhaps on a first amongst equals basis, but not above club representation.
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Re: Government "fan-led" review/ Regulator/White paper

Post by E13 Forever »

the pink palermo wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:15 pm
Why should the FSA get to pick who they point the regulator in the direction of?

Surely that is a matter for West Ham United supporters?

1 of the groups on the isc already said the fsa have been helping them out so no surprises if that is who gets the fsa nod of approval.
And the stupid thing is is that they have got hardly any members.
So if the fsa puts them forward then it will be West Ham fans that get the @@@@ end of the stick.
It should be the fans who get to decide who represents them.

the pink palermo wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:15 pm
It's clear the FSA prefer supporters Trusts, but why?

On what basis? Membership numbers? -hardly.


I do not know the answer to the first part but the answer to the 2nd part must be that membership numbers have got @@@@ all to do with it.
If the fsa think it is right to back a group with hardly any members then it will be the fans who get sold out.

the pink palermo wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:15 pm
If we are wishing to take reform and supporter representation seriously, surely each club should have a ballot into which every supporters group can field candidates, and supporters get a vote which supporters group they wish to be represented by, and that is to whom the regulator should speak. The FSA can of course continue to have a dialogue with all supporters groups, so their position remains unchanged from now.

That would seem right and fair but there was supposed to be elections of the chairs of the isc and it was the fans who was supposed to elect them. It never happend.
I reckon the last thing the fsa and the isc group they are backing will want is the fans having a say.
And if I am right about that then there will end up being a group that represents no body that gets to talk on the fans behalf.
That can not be right,
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Re: Government "fan-led" review/ Regulator/White paper

Post by johnhunt1963 »

All the people that in history have died fighting for democracy.
West Ham pick a few individuals who represent a few dozen and sit there saying they have complied to this that and the other.
I think there are a few people in and around our club who should hang their heads in shame. But from what I have seen, they don't have any shame.
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Re: Government "fan-led" review/ Regulator/White paper

Post by West Side »

I believe that all Premier League clubs should have unveiled their fan engagement proposals by now so we should hear something soon.
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Re: Government "fan-led" review/ Regulator/White paper

Post by loxfordhammer »

johnhunt1963 wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:45 pm All the people that in history have died fighting for democracy.
West Ham pick a few individuals who represent a few dozen and sit there saying they have complied to this that and the other.
I think there are a few people in and around our club who should hang their heads in shame. But from what I have seen, they don't have any shame.
Nailed it!!! :hamm:
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Re: Government "fan-led" review/ Regulator/White paper

Post by West Side »

John Hunt.

Having Any Old Irons on the ISC sums it all up to me.

A social group,obviously not independent of the club.A handful of members,almost if not impossible to contact,and a closed membership.

How can they represent supporters' interests? They are on there clearly to be a club puppet.

They have the same voting rights as West Ham United Supporters Club and Hammers United who i believe have pushing 20000 members.....Ridiculous and totally acceptable.
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Re: Government "fan-led" review/ Regulator/White paper

Post by johnhunt1963 »

West Side.

When you said a handful of people, I thought you was talking about who the isc chair and vice chair represent.
Any old irons, tried to join them, couldn't get an answer.
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