Goodbye and thank you. David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by westham,eggyandchips »

Southminster Hammer wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 6:48 am Payet was the main reason, without him, our football wasn't great either imo.
If you genuinely think that, then you have a very short memory mate.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Dimension Diver »

DusseldorfHammer wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 6:59 am Slav got found out pretty quickly.
For me it's the same old pattern we always stick to. We have a 'pragmatic' manager who gets us organised and fixes the defense (Curbs/Sam/Moyes), but the fans revolt so he's replaced with a manager that promises attacking, beautiful football (Zola/Bilic/Pellers). The first season is great as the new manager is able to build his new, attractive football on the defensive platform established by his predecessor. Everyone says, "See? We could play beautiful, attacking football all the time."

Then the second season arrives and the players start looking less fit and less organised. The defense starts falling apart and the manager obviously doesn't know how to fix it. Suddenly the platform for the beautiful, attacking football is gone and the team looks awful.

The manager who promised beautiful football gets sacked and we revert back to another pragmatic manager. Rinse, repeat.


Having said that, I sort of exclude Pellers from the second season syndrome, because I think he was a lot better manager than Zola and Bilic. I think he could have turned the club around if given more time.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by The Old Man of Storr »

Wilko1304 wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:27 am Without the big moments, we are fairly unwatchable.

The idea that to want better means we have to want City football, or that there is no path to meaningful success without playing like this is just nonsense.

Burnley had two massive jump up and hug moments, but they only came because we were abysmal for 85 minutes. Had Forest and Burnley had any sense, we lose those games. I’m happy we’ve got the right mentality and the right parts to pressure those moments, but those were both games we should have been winning, and by now, winning with some ease.

I’d like to see more obvious patterns of play, an attack that lives less off chaos, not needing the Soucek safety blanket against all opponents, more rotation. Mostly, I’d like to not feel dread when an opponent lets us have the ball.

Again, I’m in no camp as of yet, but I’d lean maybe 55/45 in favour of change. He needs to show improvement in some areas.

I agree with most if not all of that .

I think young David is overly careful - he's faced so many ' He's got 3 games to save his job ' moments it's becoming almost understandable - he also faces having to play European Football on Thursday nights , something Pochettino doesn't have to worry about yet I believe we're above Chelsea in the League AND playing European Football - imagine being a Chelsea fan , eh - All that money , all those players and yet it's David Moyes and Tomas Soucek sitting above you ?? Must be so frustrating .

That's not to say I don't want Globetrotter Footie at West Ham , I do .

I want Champions League Footie - Be Playing Manchester City off the park and a new Pony called ' Star ' for Christmas .

And I don't really care which Manager gives me that .
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by ironilunga »

Wilko1304 wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:27 am The idea that there is no path to meaningful success without playing like this is just nonsense.
Im not sure that is true.

Trying to play like the traditional top 6 but with inferior players has no history of working. Brighton are what George Burns is to the pro smoking lobby - the exception to the rule. Even Brighton haven’t provided evidence yet that you can sustainably challenge the top 6 whilst coping with a European campaign and domestic cups all whilst playing the beautiful game. The person closest to maintaining domestic and European challenges outside the sky sports top 6 (and Saudi funded Newcastle) is Dave Moyes - we are currently one of three teams left in 4 comps, the other two being Saudi owned Newcastle and Liverpool.

Over the past 10 years a couple of clubs have penetrated the top 6. None, with the exception of the unicorn that is Brighton, can be said to have played beautiful football to get there. Everton, Soton, Wolves, West Ham and Leicester are the clubs that have done it without the aide of the Saudis. Moyes was manager of West Ham and Everton. The defence based Nuno was Wolves manager and The non possession based Koeman was with Soton. Then of course there was the direct counter attacking style of Leicester managed by Ranieri.

You’d have to go a little further back to find a team outside the sky sports top 6 that broke the monopoly of the top 4 without Saudi money. I think it was Everton……All roads lead back to our Dave 😁
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by prophet:marginal »

All good points, ii, to which I would add that there is also a certain sense of circularity that is detectable, with us being in a bit of a lull at the moment.

Modern football requires change and adaption at a much faster rate than we were used to even only 10 years ago. Moyes quite clearly changed it up when recruiting Soucek and Bowen, by deploying them in positions that they hadn't really played in at their earlier clubs. It paid immediate dividends, where some changes take a little longer. He secured Lingard's involvement, albeit for a half season, and, again, we played in a manner that other coaches couldn't handle. All through that span of time, he also brought through Declan and modified his role from rookie CB to centrepiece of a club team that won half of its games (or an international team that went to the final of the Euros).

West Ham were forced to sell that player - something that Moyes could not prevent - so the cycle had to go around to the more basic/functional style of football, which, yes, might at the moment be less dynamic, but is serving us as well as to both

1. Keep us in all competitions, with a fighting chance of further progress, and
2. Operate as the basis in which new experimentation might be necessary.

Football of a modern hue is presently littered with clubs such as Man United and Chelsea who do nothing but spend increasingly daft amounts of money on players not given a chance to actually get and stay in a team. Moyes is bucking the trend, here.

And he's not just still in 4 competitions this season, but we are in the select band of 4 clubs to qualify for European club competition 3 seasons straight. Arteta can't make that first claim. Spurs can't make the second. De Zerbi/media darlings Brighton can't make either.

I think we should extend his contract. Indeed, it would, imo, be madness to fail to do so.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by woodford »

Wilko1304 wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:27 am Without the big moments, we are fairly unwatchable.

The idea that to want better means we have to want City football, or that there is no path to meaningful success without playing like this is just nonsense.

Burnley had two massive jump up and hug moments, but they only came because we were abysmal for 85 minutes. Had Forest and Burnley had any sense, we lose those games. I’m happy we’ve got the right mentality and the right parts to pressure those moments, but those were both games we should have been winning, and by now, winning with some ease.

I’d like to see more obvious patterns of play, an attack that lives less off chaos, not needing the Soucek safety blanket against all opponents, more rotation. Mostly, I’d like to not feel dread when an opponent lets us have the ball.

Again, I’m in no camp as of yet, but I’d lean maybe 55/45 in favour of change. He needs to show improvement in some areas.
Agree with that pretty much word for word. I like Moyes, i think he's 100% moved us onwards and upwards, but, christ almighty we are horrible to watch when we get possession. I would say dull but there is some sort of negative excitement when we play the ball across the back because theres always a sense that a catastrophic f*** up is seconds away.

What irritates me is that we are capable of more. I've seen it with my own eyes. We are capable of not giving teams space and time to score against us. We are capable of pressuring opposition back line so they don't have forever to find a good pass. We are capable of a non static approach. I've seen us break at speed without the need to pass backwards to our centre backs

So come Sunday i'd love to see a different approach, but we know now, 5 days in advance, that wont be happening. Antonio being out could possibly give us a fresher dimension, but i wouldn't hold my breath.

I am absolutely no football expert, but i know how we'll play as do Crystal Palace.

Its tough because as i said , i actually like the bloke he's done a great job in terms of moving us on as a club, there are too many times when i wished i could just turn up and watch the highlights though.

Think i've been in both camps over the last 3-4 seasons, in no camp now. Ideally i'd like him to put it right.....or at least have a plan B
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by ironilunga »

prophet:marginal wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 8:27 am I think we should extend his contract. Indeed, it would, imo, be madness to fail to do so.
Good post 👍

I’m staggered that we haven’t. The club in potentially letting Moyes go are chasing something that doesn’t exist. Based on recent investment the output from Moyes is basically as good as it gets. To not have him nailed down to a new contract is therefore negligent.

Make no mistake, Crystal Palace would have him in a shot and I wouldn’t put it past him elevating them to a European place.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

Wilko1304 wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 12:27 am but those were both games we should have been winning, and by now, winning with some ease.
It doesn't work like that. I do wonder if this sort of expectation/entitlement is part of the problem. People decide before a ball is kicked we should win this easily, then the other team don't roll over. This then somehow equates to we must have been rubbish/badly coached.

Outside the top 3 or 4 there are almost no easy wins for teams and those that do happen aren't usually ones you would call in advance.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by prophet:marginal »

ironilunga wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 8:42 am Make no mistake, Crystal Palace would have him in a shot and I wouldn’t put it past him elevating them to a European place.
I was just sick in my mouth there, mate :crylol:
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Southminster Hammer »

westham,eggyandchips wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 7:38 am If you genuinely think that, then you have a very short memory mate.
No, I remember going to games when Payet wasn't playing, and we reverted to more defensive football, I'm fairly sure my memory isn't that bad.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Ozza »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 8:43 am It doesn't work like that. I do wonder if this sort of expectation/entitlement is part of the problem. People decide before a ball is kicked we should win this easily, then the other team don't roll over. This then somehow equates to we must have been rubbish/badly coached.

Outside the top 3 or 4 there are almost no easy wins for teams and those that do happen aren't usually ones you would call in advance.
I still well clear of the match threads these days, its horrendous most of the time.

Whether you support the manager or want him out, its much more complex than expectation really, although im sure for some that might be it, anyway one things for sure, whoever the next bloke is I can guarantee that within 2 years of him being here the same debates will be going on with likely the same people jousting on here.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Metal Hammer »

Southminster Hammer wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 8:53 am No, I remember going to games when Payet wasn't playing, and we reverted to more defensive football, I'm fairly sure my memory isn't that bad.
Yep we were pretty dire when he was out injured.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by bonzosbeard »

There is a gif from a Godfather film where Al Pacino states, "Just when I think I'm out, they drag me back in."

I think Moyes has me feeling like that. I've been convinced he's not good enough several times last season and this.

And then he pulls it out of the bag. The right subs on Saturday, the superb win v Arsenal, last year's Cup win (and his very good record in all cups).

I think when we are poor we are very very poor (Everton, first 70 minutes v Burnley).

We have somehow dragged ourselves back into contention for a European spot but Decemberr is going to be a big month.

Let's see where the roller coaster takes us.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by El brooko79 »

Metal Hammer wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 9:07 am Yep we were pretty dire when he was out injured.
5 draws in a row. (1-1, 3 x 0-0, 1-1)
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Albie Beck »

Viv Stanshall wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2023 11:59 pm I actually understand where Hammer 1975 is coming from on this one. So I don’t find it laughable in the slightest.
Actually Man C's performance last night somewhat mirrored ours v Burnley - mostly **** for the majority of the game, experienced senior players playing like they had bags over their heads, then a couple of subs and a total turnaround in attitude and application.

That said, City are usually nowhere near as boring as the Barcelona of 10 years ago, for me anyway. And I'm not fishing... :D
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Wilko1304 »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 8:43 am It doesn't work like that. I do wonder if this sort of expectation/entitlement is part of the problem. People decide before a ball is kicked we should win this easily, then the other team don't roll over. This then somehow equates to we must have been rubbish/badly coached.

Outside the top 3 or 4 there are almost no easy wins for teams and those that do happen aren't usually ones you would call in advance.
I get what you mean, but it wasn’t going into the game expecting to win. I’ve never done that, I can’t. But during the game, when the quality on offer from the opponent was that low (Burnley especially) we should have been able to be much better. We were lucky to get a point this weekend. And both those teams were absolutely w*nk against us.

You’re putting your own expectations on my comment there, which I don’t blame you for cos some people are like that with that expectation
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by Wilko1304 »

ironilunga wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 8:07 am Im not sure that is true.

Trying to play like the traditional top 6 but with inferior players has no history of working.
Just wanting better football doesn’t mean expecting or demanding Pep-like football. It’s an unfair brush to all these arguments. It also always assumed the poster wants the manager sacked, which is lazy. I want improvement, I want to not fear games where we run possession, I want to see patterns of play and less reliance on crosses. Mostly, I want to be entertained.

Secondly, position isn’t the be-all and end-all. Mainly because we aren’t going to finish there for the most part, and I don’t really define success by it. Football is expensive, time consuming and an escape from the world. With all that in mind, I’d expect a coach to make our players better at many things, including passing, and I don’t think he has.

Lastly, entertaining football does not have to be tiki-taka. I loved our lightning counters, I enjoyed the Leicester team that won the league, too.

I don’t expect Moyes to be a passing football guru, so I wouldn’t expect it of any new manager. But I would expect better than pretty much all the football we’ve played this season since we reverted back to a 4-2-3-1.

Do people really think he’s doing the best he could with this squad in results and in performances?
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by bubbles1966 »

Entertainment matters most when you're uncompetitive because it's all you've got. When you're competitive, winning matters. the more competitive you are, the more the winning matters.

I much prefer seasons where we are fighting for something in May, than ones where the story's over in February. It's easy to play with care-free abandon, when you have nothing to play for.

There are only two clubs above us where it could reasonably be claimed we could/should be outdoing them.

Both went into their upswing a couple of seasons after us, Brighton are now on the downswing, Villa will be in due course. They are enjoying the moment, playing on adrenaline - just as we did.

We are now in the next stage, which Spurs went through about fifteen years ago. The stage of sustainability. The bit where you're always there. You're always in Europe. You're always in the QF or SF of something.

I don't believe rocking the boat would be sensible for us.
Last edited by bubbles1966 on Wed Nov 29, 2023 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

Wilko1304 wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 9:56 am I get what you mean, but it wasn’t going into the game expecting to win. I’ve never done that, I can’t. But during the game, when the quality on offer from the opponent was that low (Burnley especially) we should have been able to be much better. We were lucky to get a point this weekend. And both those teams were absolutely w*nk against us.

You’re putting your own expectations on my comment there, which I don’t blame you for cos some people are like that with that expectation
During the game their fans would say exactly the same I'd bet. There was no point in either game I thought we should be winning this easily based on the performances on the day. You obviously saw it differently which is fair enough.
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Re: David Moyes' Claret and Blue Army!

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

Arsenal, man u, villa, Liverpool all relied on crosses more than us this year. City and Chelsea are about the same.

Nobody seems to mind that they get I wide and cross it. My issue with it would be we don't do it very well not that it's a tactic we shouldn't concentrate on.
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