And if those protesting for a free Palestine were as anti Hamas as they are Israel then maybe they’d be a chance.Bend it like Repka wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 8:48 pm One thing no one is disputing is that Hamas is willing to sacrifice innocent Palestinians for its own end.
Israel / Iran
Moderators: Gnome, last.caress, Wilko1304, Rio, bristolhammerfc, the pink palermo, chalks
- MB
- Cricket's Darren Anderton
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Re: Israel / Iran
- Bend it like Repka
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Re: Israel / Iran
We are discussing Israel directly killing 40,000
"Iraq Body Count project data shows that the type of attack that resulted in the most civilian deaths was execution after abduction or capture. These accounted for 33% of civilian deaths and 29% of these deaths involved torture. The following most common causes of death were small arms gunfire at 20%, suicide bombs at 14%, vehicle bombs at 9%, roadside bombs at 5%, and air attacks at 5%."
So just one example of how complex Iraq was. You had different groups within Iraq all killing each other, a regime changed, different factions were involved. Very different from the issue we are discussing where the IDF are doing all the damage.
This is not excusing the antics of the US, but it is not comparable in my view.
- Bend it like Repka
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Re: Israel / Iran
I'm sure most Palestinians would rather live in peace without Hamas or Israel ****ing them over.
I'm sure most Israelis don't approve of what their current government are doing either.
Unfortunately the loudest and most belligerent are those in charge on both sides.
- vietnammer
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Re: Israel / Iran
Bit sloshed so (maybe not) forgive. This song doesn't mention Islam but...(in the style of a New Orleans Jazz funeral) just makes you weep at what's going on now.
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Re: Israel / Iran
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c781vgy3918o
Interesting piece from the Beeb, obviously skewed, depending on your perception of the conflict, but reasonably balanced i thought.
One excerpt caught my eye in particular:-
Irael’s assassination of Hassan Nasrallah, and the damage done to Iran’s strategy and its “axis of resistance” is fostering a new set of illusions among some in Israel and the United States. The dangerous idea is that this is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to reshape the Middle East by force, imposing order and neutering Israel’s enemies. Joe Biden – and his successor – should be wary of that.
The last time that restructuring the Middle East by force was contemplated seriously was after al-Qaeda’s 9/11 attacks on America, when US President George W Bush and Tony Blair, the UK’s prime minister, were getting ready to invade Iraq in 2003.
The invasion of Iraq did not purge the Middle East of violent extremism. It made matters worse.
I agree with this. Islamic state hasn't gone away, they're still lurking in the shadows, waiting for opportunity & willing, "martyrs", to the cause.
The longer this goes on, the more danger Isreal as a state will face. Netanyahu himself admits they are now facing a war on 7 fronts, that's not smart.
They are in a position of strength right now, but for how long..?
They need to start serious negotiations with all parties right now or face a generation of war. As soon as they defeat one enemy, another will appear ad infinitum.
You may think that has always been the case & that Israel are right to try to win this once & for all but, unfortunately, there is no, "once & for all", solution.
Interesting piece from the Beeb, obviously skewed, depending on your perception of the conflict, but reasonably balanced i thought.
One excerpt caught my eye in particular:-
Irael’s assassination of Hassan Nasrallah, and the damage done to Iran’s strategy and its “axis of resistance” is fostering a new set of illusions among some in Israel and the United States. The dangerous idea is that this is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to reshape the Middle East by force, imposing order and neutering Israel’s enemies. Joe Biden – and his successor – should be wary of that.
The last time that restructuring the Middle East by force was contemplated seriously was after al-Qaeda’s 9/11 attacks on America, when US President George W Bush and Tony Blair, the UK’s prime minister, were getting ready to invade Iraq in 2003.
The invasion of Iraq did not purge the Middle East of violent extremism. It made matters worse.
I agree with this. Islamic state hasn't gone away, they're still lurking in the shadows, waiting for opportunity & willing, "martyrs", to the cause.
The longer this goes on, the more danger Isreal as a state will face. Netanyahu himself admits they are now facing a war on 7 fronts, that's not smart.
They are in a position of strength right now, but for how long..?
They need to start serious negotiations with all parties right now or face a generation of war. As soon as they defeat one enemy, another will appear ad infinitum.
You may think that has always been the case & that Israel are right to try to win this once & for all but, unfortunately, there is no, "once & for all", solution.
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Re: Israel / Iran
Probably not many in Gaza celebrating and dancing in the streets celebrating the one year of their “warriors”
Victory over unarmed civilians as there was when the atrocities began.
F*** em all.
Victory over unarmed civilians as there was when the atrocities began.
F*** em all.
- westhamdub2
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Re: Israel / Iran
It is beyond disingenuous to suggest that what is going on now has anything to do with the hostages.the pink palermo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 9:16 am One year on from the savage, murderous attack by Hamas on innocent Israelis in which over 1200 died.
Over 100 hostages are still being held captive, missiles are still being launched into Israel, 170 were launched yesterday alone, so the various terrorist groups have not yet been eliminated.
As a minimum, the suffering will go on until every hostage is returned, every known Hamas and Hezbollah terrorist is killed.
Hamas, Hezbollah and their state sponsors have a huge amount of blood and misery on their hands.
If you want to play that game though, Isreal and it's state sponsors (US & UK) have far more blood and misery on their hands.
- westhamdub2
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Re: Israel / Iran
It's beyond me how any sane human being can have views like this, regarding the scale of suffering that the people of Gaza have had and continue to endure. Absolutely disgusting.Patsy Belgium wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 10:39 am Probably not many in Gaza celebrating and dancing in the streets celebrating the one year of their “warriors”
Victory over unarmed civilians as there was when the atrocities began.
F*** em all.
- delbert
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Re: Israel / Iran
Why is that?westhamdub2 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 2:10 pm It is beyond disingenuous to suggest that what is going on now has anything to do with the hostages.
If you want to play that game though, Isreal and it's state sponsors (US & UK) have far more blood and misery on their hands.
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Re: Israel / Iran
My thoughts go out to all the innocent victims, and their suffering families, on all sides of this conflict.
- Bend it like Repka
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Re: Israel / Iran
Examples in modern history where the complete wiping out of determined resistance has been accomplished and led to peace?the pink palermo wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 9:16 am As a minimum,.................. every known Hamas and Hezbollah terrorist is killed.
The Nazis were more ruthless than anyone, and they couldn't stop resistance forces and partizans.
All attempts to subdue the Taliban failed.
Have the Russians crushed Chechnyan rebels yet?
Israel invaded Lebanon in 1978 and 1982. Occupied South Lebanon until 2000. Then another war in 2006. Yet here we are again.
All Israel is doing is recruiting the next generation for Hamas and Hezbolla. Not learning at all.
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Re: Israel / Iran
Nonsense it’s a given thing it’s inbuilt in their genes.Bend it like Repka wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 8:31 pm
All Israel is doing is recruiting the next generation for Hamas and Hezbolla. Not learning at all.
Rather like a badge of honour.
- Hammer1966
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- Bend it like Repka
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Re: Israel / Iran
Coming from someone who has done nothing but promote more and expanded war in the Middle East I won't take it to heart.
Israel has tried using the stick countless times. It has stopped nothing. How many times before maybe another approach is worth trying?
- Viv Stanshall
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Re: Israel / Iran
Why is the onus on Israel to change what it's doing. Is it because they're likely are going to be the one that eventually stops or is it because we know that the terrorists never ever will ?
Is it okay for Israel to stop but to still have to fend off a barrage of incoming missiles from terrorist organisations on a daily basis ?
Is it okay for Israel to sign another peace treaty brokered by the UN where its aggressor completely ignores its terms and continues to arm itself, not for defence but for attack ?
Is it okay for some people to regard groups like Hamas or Hezbollah as much more than terrorists and more like national armies with political representatives, but at the same time expect Israel to be the ones that hold the responsibility to end this war. Surely if people truly believed that Hamas are a real organised political force that should be recognised by the UN within its own independent state, then equally they should be able to call for Hamas to live up to its own responsibilities for peace.
Is it okay for Israel to stop but to still have to fend off a barrage of incoming missiles from terrorist organisations on a daily basis ?
Is it okay for Israel to sign another peace treaty brokered by the UN where its aggressor completely ignores its terms and continues to arm itself, not for defence but for attack ?
Is it okay for some people to regard groups like Hamas or Hezbollah as much more than terrorists and more like national armies with political representatives, but at the same time expect Israel to be the ones that hold the responsibility to end this war. Surely if people truly believed that Hamas are a real organised political force that should be recognised by the UN within its own independent state, then equally they should be able to call for Hamas to live up to its own responsibilities for peace.
- sendô
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Re: Israel / Iran
Why not? Israel did it with Egypt, even handing over all of the very defendable Sinai.Monkeybubbles wrote: ↑Tue Oct 08, 2024 8:28 am Do you think that if Israel's enemies lay down their arms and pray for peace that Israel will then stop occupying their land and displacing and killing their people? Here's a clue: they won't.
Israel was being peaceable and non hostile on 6th October 2023. Look where that got it.
- Billi Bollox
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Re: Israel / Iran
I really really didn't want to post on this thread, but having read the above i felt i had to.Viv Stanshall wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2024 11:24 pm Why is the onus on Israel to change what it's doing. Is it because they're likely are going to be the one that eventually stops or is it because we know that the terrorists never ever will ?
Is it okay for Israel to stop but to still have to fend off a barrage of incoming missiles from terrorist organisations on a daily basis ?
Is it okay for Israel to sign another peace treaty brokered by the UN where its aggressor completely ignores its terms and continues to arm itself, not for defence but for attack ?
Is it okay for some people to regard groups like Hamas or Hezbollah as much more than terrorists and more like national armies with political representatives, but at the same time expect Israel to be the ones that hold the responsibility to end this war. Surely if people truly believed that Hamas are a real organised political force that should be recognised by the UN within its own independent state, then equally they should be able to call for Hamas to live up to its own responsibilities for peace.
While i utterly condemn the actions of Hamas (and rightly need to be punished\brought into line both militarily and in law), have you ever asked yourself what the Israelis are doing\have done to inflame the situation...
Let me give you an example of something that I am sure you would be extremely angry about if it happened to you.
When Israel were recognized as a state back in the 50's, the Palestinians were granted the West Bank and Gaza. Since the 6 day war was concluded Israel has been aggressively colonizing the west bank.
You are given a house with a large back garden which is acknowledged as being your land...
Day 1 you wake up to find someone has erected a tent in your back garden. You go out to find out what they are doing and move them on and they shoot at you.
Day 2 you wake up to find multiple tents in your back garden. You go out to stop it and get shot at\killed again
Day 3 you wake up to Caravans in your back garden, same thing happens again when you confront them
Day 4 you wake up to find out they have erected a house in your back garden and they are now saying its their land...
You go to the police to resolve the situation and they either don't care or side with the people that have taken your land.
The other thing that disturbs me is this. Why is Palestine not a member of the UN? because the US recently used its veto to block its admittance!
Anyways, rant off, there is 2000+ years of hatred between both sides and neither side seems interested in peace, so i cannot see anyone solving this in the near future.
- sendô
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Re: Israel / Iran
Fella, you should probably have a google of what really happened before making posts like this.Billi Bollox wrote: ↑Tue Oct 08, 2024 9:04 am I really really didn't want to post on this thread, but having read the above i felt i had to.
For starters Israel was formed in 1948, not "back in the 50's", and the Palestinians were not "granted the west bank and Gaza". Palestine was much bigger, but they and several surrounding states attempted to exterminate Israel. Israel fought back and won.
Everything since then has stemmed from that, and Israel's neighbours to this day continue to be mostly hostile and intent on it's extermination.
- Bend it like Repka
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Re: Israel / Iran
I assume in your suggestion that Palestinians sue for peace, this includes them accepting Israels continued building of settlements on their land evrry day? And in 20 years time when their map is even smaller they should be happy knowing their concessions were not in vain?