Brexit referendum result aftermath

[EvilC]

What would you personally feel is a decent solution to the ageing population issue? I personally believe the horse has bolted and there is no way to reform it without taking a massive hit economically and trying to build back on the right path. I'm glad it isn't my job to fix it.

If we have to bring in more younger workers to sustain it, wouldn't we have to bring in even more when the original bunch are aged, and so on? That's why I asked what the end game was in your view, as I can only see it causing more havoc economically. (Based on NHS funding being our biggest outlay, and social care being the highest outlay for the NHS, and elderly care/support being the highest putlay of that spending).

It could work if there was better infrastructure. Housing, schools, medical and social care, emergency services etc., but the paradox is that you need money for that which will extrapolate as the population does.

On average, you spend around half of your lifetime healthcare spend in your final year of life. How many people have had parents that had a miserable last year? Or few months? I know I have. Letting people end their lives humanely seems the only thing you can do, should they wish to. You can pay or otherwise encourage people to have more kids, but that doesn’t fit with the conservative stand on your own two feet mantra.

No, because they don’t all stay.

How are you going to pay for better infrastructure when the grand plan for the country is kneecapping the economy?

[chelmsfordhammer91]

On average, you spend around half of your lifetime healthcare spend in your final year of life. How many people have had parents that had a miserable last year? Or few months? I know I have. Letting people end their lives humanely seems the only thing you can do, should they wish to. You can pay or otherwise encourage people to have more kids, but that doesn’t fit with the conservative stand on your own two feet mantra.

No, because they don’t all stay.

How are you going to pay for better infrastructure when the grand plan for the country is kneecapping the economy?

That's fair, so ideally a solution would be to reform around incentives to have children and try and develop tthe economy enough to outweigh the negatives of an ageing population?

I appreciate not all migrants stay, but if a young worker spends the majority of their working life here (assuming NI contributions etc.), the life and damily they create would be here so wouldn't staying put be the more desirable option?

The last part is my point, it's a poisoned chalice either way as we need the economic growth to sustain an ageing population (referenced in first paragraph) and the younger workers who help cover today's needs, but the problem extrapolates with no ultimate 'fix'. The issues compound until something more significant has to give.

I don't blame the EU for that, as I believe we would be in a similar position if we were never EU members. Long term, i personally believe our best chance is to not be so directly attached to the EU. This is all conjecture and opinion obviously and I do hope either way it works out. It isn't as clear cut as a lot of people make out, which is why I generally lose interest when someone is adamnt their opinion is fact as it devalues their argument.

[Hammer1966]

No, because they don’t all stay.

Bang on. I arrived here in 1989 with a group of about 15 mates arriving through the summer. I'm the only one still here. Over the years some have gone back home and others moved on the other jobs and countries. All worked and contributed to the economy with taxes and spending. The last few vanished in 2016 after the Brexit vote. It gets harder to do as the years go by and you drop deep roots with kids etc but it's fairly common for immigrants to pack up and head back home.

[sendô]

What would you personally feel is a decent solution to the ageing population issue?

[chelmsfordhammer91]

Before my time mate, no idea who they are. :lol:

[EvilC]

That's fair, so ideally a solution would be to reform around incentives to have children and try and develop tthe economy enough to outweigh the negatives of an ageing population?

I appreciate not all migrants stay, but if a young worker spends the majority of their working life here (assuming NI contributions etc.), the life and damily they create would be here so wouldn't staying put be the more desirable option?

The last part is my point, it's a poisoned chalice either way as we need the economic growth to sustain an ageing population (referenced in first paragraph) and the younger workers who help cover today's needs, but the problem extrapolates with no ultimate 'fix'. The issues compound until something more significant has to give.

I don't blame the EU for that, as I believe we would be in a similar position if we were never EU members. Long term, i personally believe our best chance is to not be so directly attached to the EU. This is all conjecture and opinion obviously and I do hope either way it works out. It isn't as clear cut as a lot of people make out, which is why I generally lose interest when someone is adamnt their opinion is fact as it devalues their argument.

It sounds like a reasonable plan, but probably hard to do in the developed world. Why did we need to leave the EU to try that?

I don’t know, you’d need to ask Piotr. Or H1966. If your wife is where your from and you’ve accrued some money, going back home where you are relatively rich sounds like a reasonable idea.

If a fair portion go home then the problem doesn’t extrapolate with the ultimate fix, and even if it does, a problem in the future is better than one now.

If it isn’t so clear cut, why is everyone that thinks that, including those in charge, incapable of coming up with a plan that stands up to rigour? I mean a plan, not ideas or a list of complaints about the EU.

[chelmsfordhammer91]

It sounds like a reasonable plan, but probably hard to do in the developed world. Why did we need to leave the EU to try that?

I don’t know, you’d need to ask Piotr. Or H1966. If your wife is where your from and you’ve accrued some money, going back home where you are relatively rich sounds like a reasonable idea.

If a fair portion go home then the problem doesn’t extrapolate with the ultimate fix, and even if it does, a problem in the future is better than one now.

If it isn’t so clear cut, why is everyone that thinks that, including those in charge, incapable of coming up with a plan that stands up to rigour? I mean a plan, not ideas or a list of complaints about the EU.

I appreciate your comments and perseverance with me on this, we don't agree but it's a healthy debate.

Focusing on your last paragraph, I believe those in charge are incapable of a lot of things, with a clear plan being one of them. It doesn't necessarily mean (in my opinion) Brexit will be a net negative overall (not just economical, but every aspect of life it impacts). I believe our recent and current governments didn't want to leave, but felt obliged to due to the referendum result (although not legally binding, would have been political suicide to openly go against the wishes of the majority).

The amount of time they've invested in the leave campaign, actually leaving and 'trying' to sort out Brexit relared issues immediately makes me think of what they did with their time before.

I honestly don't have the answers to your other questions. I think it would be naïve to judge the outcome of brexit as of now, as we all know things change and take time. 50 years quoted before is a stretch, but I'd say 10 years is a good indication if it was a total cock up or not.

[EvilC]

I appreciate your comments and perseverance with me on this, we don't agree but it's a healthy debate.

Focusing on your last paragraph, I believe those in charge are incapable of a lot of things, with a clear plan being one of them. It doesn't necessarily mean (in my opinion) Brexit will be a net negative overall (not just economical, but every aspect of life it impacts). I believe our recent and current governments didn't want to leave, but felt obliged to due to the referendum result (although not legally binding, would have been political suicide to openly go against the wishes of the majority).

The amount of time they've invested in the leave campaign, actually leaving and 'trying' to sort out Brexit relared issues immediately makes me think of what they did with their time before.

I honestly don't have the answers to your other questions. I think it would be naïve to judge the outcome of brexit as of now, as we all know things change and take time. 50 years quoted before is a stretch, but I'd say 10 years is a good indication if it was a total cock up or not.

They ran the country instead of dealing with a farce.

I do not accept that you can only judge things looking back. It would be naive not to do some basic analysis of where we are 25% of the way through that ten years, and also attempt to look forward. Those that won't are simply afraid to look their decision in the face.

[Bend it like Repka]

What the debate over the last few pages has missed, is the issue of not being a fixed cog in a machine that you can't control.

The whole immigration issue was of course down to the concept that free movement had no limits, and some of us found that a rather stupid idea given we have such things as a housing crisis.

Also of course there was the undemocratic path of the EU, where ever closer union was the only option on the menu. I did read with a smirk complaints the as our MEPs were mostly anti Brexit we couldn't achieve any positive outcomes in the EU. Britain had always been on the losing side in EU votes and had the worst outcome ratio out of any country. Also rather missing the point is that MEPs were a mere rubber stamp of democracy and the real decisions were made by the EU council in which we were often isolated, only having the veto button to play with, making us ever more unpopular.

Financially being in the EU ties you to the grand plan, and Germany's plan to be more precise. All the while having to support countries like Greece and Italy. That pot is still bubbling by the way.

https://theconversation.com/why-a-new-e ... ity-184765

The problems I've read, Dover, the NHS, trained labour, could all be solved if we had people in charge who actually had brains, and foresight and a proper will to effect change and improvement.

Brexit is not the problem, it's the leadership.

[EvilC]

Again, more EU grievances, Brexit isn’t the problem, blame politicians (the ones that brought you Brexit are the ones currently in charge and operating the Brexit circus), no suggestion as to how to make Brexit work. It sounds exactly like what has been said in the last few pages.

[Hammers Dad]

Before my time mate, no idea who they are. :lol:

That was I was going to suggest, a Logans Run (a film, look it up) solution where people "voluntarily" pop their clogs at a certain age

[Bend it like Repka]

Again, more EU grievances, Brexit isn’t the problem, blame politicians (the ones that brought you Brexit are the ones currently in charge and operating the Brexit circus), no suggestion as to how to make Brexit work. It sounds exactly like what has been said in the last few pages.

They were, and are legitimate reasons to leave the EU.

The Dover queues could have been solved with proper management, correct employment of staff and improvements to infrastructure. Brexit didn't cause the queues, **** planning did.

You were talking about an ageing population. Has Brexit aged those people? Our only solution is to import cheap labour to help them? Dear god how to other countries outside the EU deal with old people?

You don't need to be in the EU to overhaul the NHS, pay better wages, produce incentives to reduce staff issues....

Ditto training of people in industry. Rather than importing the solution how's about actually home growing it?

Radical stuff I know.....

[OFT]

That was I was going to suggest, a Logans Run (a film, look it up) solution where people "voluntarily" pop their clogs at a certain age

Or Soylent Green.(film)

[Monkeybubbles]

That was I was going to suggest, a Logans Run (a film, look it up) solution where people "voluntarily" pop their clogs at a certain age

I thought that's what Covid was for

[sendô]

I did read with a smirk complaints the as our MEPs were mostly anti Brexit we couldn't achieve any positive outcomes in the EU.

Probably the same smirk I have when I read all the cut-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face claptrap blaming all out ills on the EU.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

Again, more EU grievances, Brexit isn’t the problem, blame politicians (the ones that brought you Brexit are the ones currently in charge and operating the Brexit circus), no suggestion as to how to make Brexit work. It sounds exactly like what has been said in the last few pages.

As I mentioned in my other post, Brexit was the enabler. Free movement of labour was a dream come true for Osborne and his ilk.

[Bend it like Repka]

Probably the same smirk I have when I read all the cut-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face claptrap blaming all out ills on the EU.

Come on Sendo, you are better than that. I never blamed all this countries problems on the EU. You are just making that up.

Ideologically I have been opposed to the EU before Blair even signed us up with giving us a referendum.

[EvilC]

They were, and are legitimate reasons to leave the EU.

The Dover queues could have been solved with proper management, correct employment of staff and improvements to infrastructure. Brexit didn't cause the queues, **** planning did.

You were talking about an ageing population. Has Brexit aged those people? Our only solution is to import cheap labour to help them? Dear god how to other countries outside the EU deal with old people?

You don't need to be in the EU to overhaul the NHS, pay better wages, produce incentives to reduce staff issues....

Ditto training of people in industry. Rather than importing the solution how's about actually home growing it?

Radical stuff I know.....

I’m not saying there aren’t legitimate reasons. I’m saying that if you look at only getting rid of things you don’t like whilst ignoring all the downsides or pretending they don’t exist, you’ll make bad decisions.

Re France - Brexit has resulted in increased paperwork and checks to go from the UK to the EU. For whatever reason, the French are understaffed at Calais. The lack of staff means checks take longer. The increase in checks means it takes longer still. The correct employment of staff, which is something a lot of places have issues with right now, might solve it, but it is out of our hands so no amount of management by the UK can resolve this, particularly after six years of saying “up yours” to the EU.

Yes, being in the EU has helped those people. Where do you think a lot of the care home staff came from?

There are various ways to deal with an ageing population. Shock, horror, one of those is to encourage immigration. You can also get your nan to wipe someone else’s nan’s arse, but your nan probably doesn’t want to do that and may have various other reasons why she can’t.

No, you don’t need to be in the EU to do those things. However being in the EU was beneficial for the economy and the tax base, which makes paying better wages easier.

Go ahead, train some people. Your ageing population means you don’t have enough of them. You can also see MBubble’s posts on why people often prefer staff from abroad.

Radical stuff, I know…

[EvilC]

As I mentioned in my other post, Brexit was the enabler. Free movement of labour was a dream come true for Osborne and his ilk.

Brexit enabled what exactly?

[EvilC]

I thought that's what Covid was for

I saw it called “the boomer remover”.