Brexit referendum result aftermath

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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath

Post by Monkeybubbles »

chelmsfordhammer91 wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 10:16 am
I agree that British workers on average are less likely to want to work in a factory etc., but I believe a lot of that is due to the poor wages for the effort made.
It's more a cultural thing, in my experience. Another massive generalisation coming up......

Piotr will take pride in his workmanship and his workplace, will endeavour to beat his output targets, will work a bit longer than his shift dictates if required, will suggest ways to improve the processes, will hardly ever take a day out sick.

Pete will give it a go until something better comes along.


The Thatcher years saw a lot of our manufacturing dismantled, the Blair years saw what was left of it become a pariah. Working in a factory is still seen as some kind of life failure, and young(ish) British people are just not motivated to do it, in general. Honestly, it's not JUST about wages.
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath

Post by delbert »

Monkeybubbles wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:26 pm
Piotr will take pride in his workmanship and his workplace, will endeavour to beat his output targets, will work a bit longer than his shift dictates if required, will suggest ways to improve the processes, will hardly ever take a day out sick.
The unions of old would've had him blacked before before his first vodka break........
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath

Post by DrVenk »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 10:24 am Of course things are going to be slower at times as there are now more checks. If people want to criticize the govt for something then not adequately communicating this would be it imo.

It's also needed a better system for the surrounding area for decades it seems. Sticking plaster solutions for the main transport hub to the continent.
Agree Sammy.

Just going back to the port authorities, a formal legal process was kicked off summer of last year due to government's unwillingness to even talk about needing to deal with capacity - they couldn't because numerous ministers at the time were on record lying about the need for there to be checks this side. The above was the start of a process where the authorities were demonstrating an inability to fulfil their duties given the new rules imposed from our side.

Plenty of c*ck ups this side of the channel as well as bad blood on the other side.
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath

Post by Greatest Cockney Rip Off »

Monkeybubbles wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:26 pm It's more a cultural thing, in my experience. Another massive generalisation coming up......

Piotr will take pride in his workmanship and his workplace, will endeavour to beat his output targets, will work a bit longer than his shift dictates if required, will suggest ways to improve the processes, will hardly ever take a day out sick.

Pete will give it a go until something better comes along.


The Thatcher years saw a lot of our manufacturing dismantled, the Blair years saw what was left of it become a pariah. Working in a factory is still seen as some kind of life failure, and young(ish) British people are just not motivated to do it, in general. Honestly, it's not JUST about wages.
I'm going to counter your "no true Scotsman" argument with my own experience of factory work in the 1990s.

When the building trade went pear-shaped I worked in two factories. One, a cigarette factory in Edmonton, the other a car mat manufacturing factory in Tottenham. The cigarette factory offered a slightly higher wage than most factory work at the time, a four day working week (ten hour days with Fridays off) and never ever had problems recruiting. They offered favourable working conditions compared to most, took a genuine interest in their employees and got back from that, a workforce that was dedicated and produced quality products (if you can call ciggies quality products). I quite enjoyed working there until it closed in 1992 due to being bought out.

The other factory I worked in again, offered slightly more competitive wages than other factory work at the time and produced quality products. It's workforce consisted of many who'd been at the place for 20 years plus. They offered a bonus scheme for output which again meant production kept up with demand (which was huge as they were the main car mat manufacturer for almost all of the major car manufacturers). It was shift work and the actual work was quite hard depending on whether you were pressing the mats (extremely hot and smelly), the mill which cut the blocks of rubber into manageable sizes (heavy and dirty, not to mention physical) and the packing department which again was quite heavy and physical. I can honestly say, there was never any of your examples of people just waiting until something better came along as this was the stop-gap for "something better". They were dedicated, hard-working, took pride in their work, were appreciated by management and rewarded accordingly. I left after three and a half years as I wanted to work in IT but had never once thought this is **** and I can do better so I'll just hang it out see what else turns up.

I do get tired of the same old tropes that are trotted out about the British worker, from the highly inaccurate "they were too lazy in the 50s to do certain jobs so they employed West Indians and Irish to do them" "they didn't want to do jobs they thought were beneath their standards" to the "British workers are feckless, don't take pride in their work and looking for a skive at every opportunity". It's inaccurate, insulting and usually from people who accuse others of being bigots. I know you've added the caveat that it's a generalisation but again, sweeping statements like that do your argument no favours. If it were true, how the hell did this country have a manufacturing industry at all if everyone was just giving it a go until something better came along and all we needed to do was employ cheap Eastern European labour and our problems would all be over?

Believe me, British manufacturing did not decline because the British worker was waiting for something better to come along.
Last edited by Greatest Cockney Rip Off on Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath

Post by Johnny Byrne's Boots »

I was listening to the radio in the car the other day discussing the Dover troubles, when an Englishman living in France came on. He said the constant UK press barrage blaming France and the EU for most things does have an effect over there. Talking to his French friends about it, he said it's only human nature that they'll resent it and react. He travels between France and the UK a number of times a year and said he has noticed a difference in the behaviour of French border staff on occasions. One example he gave was a kind of 'work to rule', where they normally check one person in every two cars but when they feel like it they'll stop every car and do a full document check on all occupants. If you annoy people they'll annoy you.
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

DrVenk wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 12:51 pm Agree Sammy.

Just going back to the port authorities, a formal legal process was kicked off summer of last year due to government's unwillingness to even talk about needing to deal with capacity - they couldn't because numerous ministers at the time were on record lying about the need for there to be checks this side. The above was the start of a process where the authorities were demonstrating an inability to fulfil their duties given the new rules imposed from our side.

Plenty of c*ck ups this side of the channel as well as bad blood on the other side.
Won't disagree with any of that but still all the capacity in the world won't help if the booths are unmanned. If they had built booths and had the same staffing as this week the papers would be full of £33m white elephant stories.

Honestly I would prefer if authorities on both sides just explained it was something of a learning experience, that things will improve and apologize. Instead we get the usual remember Waterloo crap from both sides.
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath

Post by EvilC »

Greatest Cockney Rip Off wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:42 am Agreed and from the British MEPs in the European Parliament to the domestic government were given the tools to create that system by membership of the European Union. No British MEP from the three main parties ever made any objections to these particular laws and legislation (apart from the Brexit party).



As I said, there was no other way things were going to change and it was made clear that this would be a once in a lifetime vote. Yes you may think it's extreme, but it was the only way to break the cycle of regressive polices for the lowest paid in society and a race to the bottom in terms of wages and working conditions.



And more of the same wasn't doing anything for me at the time of the vote hence the reason for the way I voted. As I've stated before, the fact we have utter and complete idiots in charge, for me, is not a valid reason to not try and change an unfair system.
We are now racing to the bottom faster. As I have said before, you can say you want change, but if you are changing to something demonstrably worse then change is probably a bad idea.
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath

Post by EvilC »

chelmsfordhammer91 wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:48 am I'm not saying you specifically, but the wider reaction (not everyone) to those who voted to leave.

So by temporary, i meant that paying people a fair wage will initially hit the economoy/consumer, but when a 'new normal' is established then the economy would build from there.

Regarding voting for the future, my own vote to leave wasn't really due to the situation the UK was in at the time, it was to what the situation was looking like in the future.

Mostly due to an unsustainable level of 'free movement' that IMO would see those from less economocally developed nations emigrate to more economically developed nations within the EU. Also, although there hasn't been a law yet set by the EU i fundamentally am against, I believe it is high risk to have any national sovereignty out of our hands or issues that can be vetoed by other governments.

Either way, I was more in the middle of the argument, not really entirely bothered either way.

I believe we have to give this time, with a proper government in place with some level of competence.
I haven’t seen anything you’ve said that puts you in the middle at all.

Why is that the level of free movement is unsustainable but the ageing population is not described as such?

Sovereignty sounds great. However the powerful dictate to the less so, hence part of the idea behind the EU - you pool some of your sovereignty in return for economic benefit. I’m not sovereign, my sovereignty is pooled with the rest of the nation. Should I declare independence in order to regain sovereignty?

If you want me to give it time then you’ll need a credible plan. I’m waiting for that, and people will never be happy with the government, and because of that according to your last sentence we will be forever be giving it time as the country falls further behind.
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath

Post by Greatest Cockney Rip Off »

EvilC wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:42 pm We are now racing to the bottom faster.
So we were racing to the bottom before, with EU membership? It appears a race to the bottom is unavoidable.
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath

Post by Monkeybubbles »

Greatest Cockney Rip Off wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:11 pm
I do get tired of the same old tropes that are trotted out about the British worker, from the highly inaccurate "they were too lazy in the 50s to do certain jobs so they employed West Indians and Irish to do them" "they didn't want to do jobs they thought were beneath their standards" to the "British workers are feckless, don't take pride in their work and looking for a skive at every opportunity". It's inaccurate, insulting and usually from people who accuse others of being bigots. I know you've added the caveat that it's a generalisation but again, sweeping statements like that do your argument no favours. If it were true, how the hell did this country have a manufacturing industry at all if everyone was just giving it a go until something better came along and all we needed to do was employ cheap Eastern European labour and our problems would all be over?

Believe me, British manufacturing did not decline because the British worker was waiting for something better to come along.
I absolutely 100% agree with your post, and I think you've interpreted mine incorrectly.

To be clear: I'm pretty passionate about UK manufacturing, and the decline over the 40 years that I've been involved genuinely breaks my heart. I would never ever disparage those that do (or have done) honest days on the shopfloor, and in fact I spend quite a lot of time advocating manufacturing as a progressive career choice amongst school and college leavers.

My point was more that post-Blair, post-"Loadsamoney", post-Twitter Influencers, manufacturing as a career choice has become devalued to the point that school leavers pretty much see it as a last resort. Just last week, in fact, I was at a funeral and I asked a 22 year old distant relative what he was doing now, and he very sheepishly said that he's "just working on the line at a food processing factory". I can't even put into words the emotions that happened, he seemed so ashamed and deflated and I was really trying to enthuse him.


In short, try recruiting British millenials to work in manufacturing. It's a total cock.
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath

Post by chelmsfordhammer91 »

EvilC wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 1:48 pm I haven’t seen anything you’ve said that puts you in the middle at all.

Why is that the level of free movement is unsustainable but the ageing population is not described as such?

Sovereignty sounds great. However the powerful dictate to the less so, hence part of the idea behind the EU - you pool some of your sovereignty in return for economic benefit. I’m not sovereign, my sovereignty is pooled with the rest of the nation. Should I declare independence in order to regain sovereignty?

If you want me to give it time then you’ll need a credible plan. I’m waiting for that, and people will never be happy with the government, and because of that according to your last sentence we will be forever be giving it time as the country falls further behind.
The ageing population issue is unsustainable, but by feeding it rather than looking for ways to reform, it exacerbates the problem down the line. If no significant reform is done, what is the end game?

Although freedom of movement has its benefits, you understandably see those from lower economically developed countries move to higher economically developed countries. It's not the people, it's the system. It may have worked up until a certain point, (I believe it was up until the mid 2000s where it swung from the average EU migrant being a net positive to the economy to being a net negative), but my view is longer term (I'm talking decades here at least), freedom of movement would be less beneficial to our country than targeted controlled migration.

I understand the premise and idea of the EU, I just personally do not believe it is the economic be all and end all for the UK. The half ars*d approach by our government so far has set us back so far it will take a lot longer to see any benefit.

My main disagreement with leaving though is that the trade deals we would negotiate were unlikely to be as good as what we had with the EU. I don't know how it worked before in terms of agreeing deals with the rest of the world whilst a member of the EU, but somewhere in the middle is a fair compromise.

I agree with your last point, I can't imagine a competent enough government between those in parliament at the moment being able to do a good enough job. From what I've seen so far, I'd rather Starmer have a go than either Sunak or Truss.
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath

Post by Turns to Stone »

Yep. The entire focus of the government and every school post 1995 has essentially drummed it into kids heads that 'YOU ARE BETTER THAN FACTORY WORK!!!'

The west has a ****ed up relationship with work, in that for some reason we seem to think that it is something that should be enjoyed, or something that you have a passion for. Where traditionally it has been something really that is endured to put food on the table. Our parents were sold dreams of endless leisure with robot butlers, and my generation was told to 'Go to University, and do something that makes you happy!'. This is changing slightly now as schools are doing brilliant engineering fairs and things like that.

I'm involved in a school nearby, and we had a careers day that focused on manufacturing and the diferent roles involved. It was specifically aimed at low-attainment students who traditionally have gone straight into benefits and focused on the 'joy of work' and the opportunities in these sorts of roles.

These are the sort of policies that our governments should be focusing on, but unfortunately they've bigger stuff on their plates than their future work force so it's left to schools and volunteer organisations.
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

Ok this is going to sound proper arsey - so I am aware but feel free to lambast me lol.

Is some of this reluctance to do with raising aspirations? I've got mates from one generation before mine and they had little choice or say in what they did. I was a little more fortunate as unis became a little more accessible (and the pit had shut)

Kids are encouraged to dream big and there is a dazzling myriad of degree courses to match any dream. Given the choice would many people dream of being a factory worker?

Step daughters close friends group includes 6 people that want to be film directors and are going to various universities to pursue this dream. That's all great but does all this need to be tempered with a dose of reality.
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath

Post by EvilC »

chelmsfordhammer91 wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 2:34 pm The ageing population issue is unsustainable, but by feeding it rather than looking for ways to reform, it exacerbates the problem down the line. If no significant reform is done, what is the end game?

Although freedom of movement has its benefits, you understandably see those from lower economically developed countries move to higher economically developed countries. It's not the people, it's the system. It may have worked up until a certain point, (I believe it was up until the mid 2000s where it swung from the average EU migrant being a net positive to the economy to being a net negative), but my view is longer term (I'm talking decades here at least), freedom of movement would be less beneficial to our country than targeted controlled migration.

I understand the premise and idea of the EU, I just personally do not believe it is the economic be all and end all for the UK. The half ars*d approach by our government so far has set us back so far it will take a lot longer to see any benefit.

My main disagreement with leaving though is that the trade deals we would negotiate were unlikely to be as good as what we had with the EU. I don't know how it worked before in terms of agreeing deals with the rest of the world whilst a member of the EU, but somewhere in the middle is a fair compromise.

I agree with your last point, I can't imagine a competent enough government between those in parliament at the moment being able to do a good enough job. From what I've seen so far, I'd rather Starmer have a go than either Sunak or Truss.
I disagree that it is unsustainable and creates problems later down the line. And even if I agreed, the ageing population is unsustainable and is creating problems now. I have a solution, but killing grandpa seems rather excessive.

You can call the effort half-arsed, at some point, after 15 years of several changes of government, people might stop blaming governments and start looking at the root cause, and there will be a lot of “that’s not my Brexit” in between.

You won’t get a fair compromise. You’ll get the UK, desperate and not good at these things, signing **** deals. Example: Australia.

The government, installed to deliver this abortion, turns out to be both incompetent and bent. That should tell you something.
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath

Post by chelmsfordhammer91 »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 2:44 pm Ok this is going to sound proper arsey - so I am aware but feel free to lambast me lol.

Is some of this reluctance to do with raising aspirations? I've got mates from one generation before mine and they had little choice or say in what they did. I was a little more fortunate as unis became a little more accessible (and the pit had shut)

Kids are encouraged to dream big and there is a dazzling myriad of degree courses to match any dream. Given the choice would many people dream of being a factory worker?

Step daughters close friends group includes 6 people that want to be film directors and are going to various universities to pursue this dream. That's all great but does all this need to be tempered with a dose of reality.
I don't think you are far off. The nature of university has changed considerably.

Originally, university was a way to 'expand your mind' etc., with a lower focus of it being a certified qualification to improve your job prospects. Over time and probably in correlation with reducing bursaries and rising costs it centered more around being a means to improvong your career path.

I was at uni in 09-12, and we started seeing courses introduced that appear to have no value in the 'real' world.

A while before I went to uni, i believe it was Gordon Brown that said something about aiming for a 50% university educared population. Educating more people isn't a bad thing, but in terms of economical impact isn't necessarily a good thing.

From experience with hiring, a degree has become devalued to the point (at least in my industry) where the actual skill sets are being noticed more, which IMO is a good thing.
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath

Post by Turns to Stone »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 2:44 pm Ok this is going to sound proper arsey - so I am aware but feel free to lambast me lol.

Is some of this reluctance to do with raising aspirations? I've got mates from one generation before mine and they had little choice or say in what they did. I was a little more fortunate as unis became a little more accessible (and the pit had shut)

Kids are encouraged to dream big and there is a dazzling myriad of degree courses to match any dream. Given the choice would many people dream of being a factory worker?

Step daughters close friends group includes 6 people that want to be film directors and are going to various universities to pursue this dream. That's all great but does all this need to be tempered with a dose of reality.
Spot on, mate. And also, we have spent the last 20 years rewarding idiocy. We pushed genuine morons onto our TV screens and they were rewarded with riches. I've said it many times that wealth and fame used to be a by-product of talent. Now the two have very little in common, and literally anyone can become a celebrity.

My wife studied Drama at University and lived with 5 other girls. None of them have done anything in acting except on, who essentially has spent the last 20 years handing out flyers at Piccadilly Circus and last week finally got her big break in a 10 second role playing a drug addict on Emmerdale.

We were all sold a dream.
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath

Post by chelmsfordhammer91 »

EvilC wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 2:48 pm I disagree that it is unsustainable and creates problems later down the line. And even if I agreed, the ageing population is unsustainable and is creating problems now. I have a solution, but killing grandpa seems rather excessive.

You can call the effort half-arsed, at some point, after 15 years of several changes of government, people might stop blaming governments and start looking at the root cause, and there will be a lot of “that’s not my Brexit” in between.

You won’t get a fair compromise. You’ll get the UK, desperate and not good at these things, signing **** deals. Example: Australia.

The government, installed to deliver this abortion, turns out to be both incompetent and bent. That should tell you something.
What would you personally feel is a decent solution to the ageing population issue? I personally believe the horse has bolted and there is no way to reform it without taking a massive hit economically and trying to build back on the right path. I'm glad it isn't my job to fix it.

If we have to bring in more younger workers to sustain it, wouldn't we have to bring in even more when the original bunch are aged, and so on? That's why I asked what the end game was in your view, as I can only see it causing more havoc economically. (Based on NHS funding being our biggest outlay, and social care being the highest outlay for the NHS, and elderly care/support being the highest putlay of that spending).

It could work if there was better infrastructure. Housing, schools, medical and social care, emergency services etc., but the paradox is that you need money for that which will extrapolate as the population does.
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath

Post by YGNB »

Have JRM found any benefits yet?
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath

Post by Monkeybubbles »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 2:44 pm Ok this is going to sound proper arsey - so I am aware but feel free to lambast me lol.

Is some of this reluctance to do with raising aspirations? I've got mates from one generation before mine and they had little choice or say in what they did. I was a little more fortunate as unis became a little more accessible (and the pit had shut)

Kids are encouraged to dream big and there is a dazzling myriad of degree courses to match any dream. Given the choice would many people dream of being a factory worker?

Step daughters close friends group includes 6 people that want to be film directors and are going to various universities to pursue this dream. That's all great but does all this need to be tempered with a dose of reality.
I think I agree. It's about the erosion of the working class and "a fair day's work for a fair day's pay".

Frankly, though, I'm not sure what working class means anymore. Can't afford to get misty eyed about it though, the future's waiting....
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Re: Brexit referendum result aftermath

Post by Hammer1966 »

Just been on Le Shuttle. Passport control was as the say 'Fluide'. No delays or problems and all booths staffed on both sides by extremely pleasant and courteous staff. We had a mixed car of European and British passports.

We then hit a two hour delay once we passed passport control due to 'Customer Service' issues. No idea what that related to.

Next weekend is the second busiest of the year when it comes to shifting people through Dover and Folkestone according to the experts. And BA are still cancelling flights on a daily basis (I had one moved twice at the weekend, then cancelled). Anyone leaving this weekend better start praying they get their **** sorted before Friday.
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