Brexit referendum result aftermath

[DaveWHU1964]

You could well be right. I suspect it's a combination of what you said earlier and a bit of what I said too. These things are rarely 100% down to one specific aspect.

Anyway, I'd have expected to see this kind of stuff in the Guardian but to see it in the Express says something methinks ...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics ... est-issues

No wonder Johnson and Truss are trying to pick another fight now. The narrative will again be if it wasn't for those pesky Europeans Brexit would be just dandy. I suspect less will fall for it than previously.

[MB]

You could well be right. I suspect it's a combination of what you said earlier and a bit of what I said too. These things are rarely 100% down to one specific aspect.

Agreed Dave. I just struggle to believe that people stupid enough to put intentions to breach the Covid Regulations (they brought in…) in writing are clever enough to have some kind of plan to deceive the public.
They are making it up as they go along, but yes there is clearly some spin in there.

[DaveWHU1964]

Agreed Dave. I just struggle to believe that people stupid enough to put intentions to breach the Covid Regulations (they brought in…) in writing are clever enough to have some kind of plan to deceive the public.
They are making it up as they go along, but yes there is clearly some spin in there.

Oh, I never said they had a plan MB

For me, it's the opposite of a plan. It's more of a make-it-up-as-you-go-along, say-whatever-needs-to-be-said-that-particular-day, simply in order to get through that day and worry-about-it-later-opportunism that I think plays a part in this mess of their own making.

[SammyLeeWasOffside]

Anyway, I'd have expected to see this kind of stuff in the Guardian but to see it in the Express says something methinks ...

No wonder Johnson and Truss are trying to pick another fight now. The narrative will again be if it wasn't for those pesky Europeans Brexit would be just dandy. I suspect less will fall for it than previously.

I'd agree it's a change in the media but I would question he ow anyone can say it's been a success or failure at this point.

When we went in it took 3 years for GDP to stop falling and 5 before any measurable growth. That said it's probably easier to adjust to joining something than leaving something.

[MB]

I'd agree it's a change in the media but I would question he ow anyone can say it's been a success or failure at this point.

When we went in it took 3 years for GDP to stop falling and 5 before any measurable growth. That said it's probably easier to adjust to joining something than leaving something.

In absolute terms I don’t disagree Sammy, but I think you can measure “is it going the way we were promised by Boris and Co?” I cannot see the answer to that is anything other than “no” regardless of how you voted.

I don’t remember anyone in government saying “short term pain, long term gain”. We were also promised it was an oven ready deal, but seems someone forgot to pre-heat the oven and now it is undercooked.

My annoyance around the whole piece is that no one in parliament has been honest. Remain were all doom and gloom and leave were all rainbows and unicorns. No one has said “we lose X, Y and Z which will cost £ but we gain A, B and C which is important because…”

They also haven’t been honest around timelines.

A massive issue and we’ve been treated like sheep for five years about it.

[EvilC]

I'd agree it's a change in the media but I would question he ow anyone can say it's been a success or failure at this point.

When we went in it took 3 years for GDP to stop falling and 5 before any measurable growth. That said it's probably easier to adjust to joining something than leaving something.

There isn't anything that has happened or looks likely to happen that suggests the current pattern is going to change.

[Danny's Dyer Acting]

Irish economy is seeing loads of benefits apparently

[old fart]

Irish economy is seeing loads of benefits apparently

Len Shackleton "the Clown Prince of Football" wrote an autobiography, one chapter was called The average club directors knowledge of football he left the page blank.

I was thinking of starting a thread the benefits of brexit to the average Brit so far

[SammyLeeWasOffside]

In absolute terms I don’t disagree Sammy, but I think you can measure “is it going the way we were promised by Boris and Co?” I cannot see the answer to that is anything other than “no” regardless of how you voted.

I don’t remember anyone in government saying “short term pain, long term gain”. We were also promised it was an oven ready deal, but seems someone forgot to pre-heat the oven and now it is undercooked.

My annoyance around the whole piece is that no one in parliament has been honest. Remain were all doom and gloom and leave were all rainbows and unicorns. No one has said “we lose X, Y and Z which will cost £ but we gain A, B and C which is important because…”

They also haven’t been honest around timelines.

A massive issue and we’ve been treated like sheep for five years about it.

This is the problem when people listen to politicians.

When I cast my vote I wasn't listening to Boris or rees-mogg and certainly not farage. None of them were in charge of the country.

The problem with it was nobody expected a leave win so nobody had planned for it or (it seems) even considered how to plan for it.

There should have been a plan laid out by Cameron before thinking of calling the vote. Remain or leave in this way. That or make it clear it was a 2 stage process should leave win with a second vote on how we should leave.

Because there was no proper process laid down the whole thing got tribal.

[SammyLeeWasOffside]

There isn't anything that has happened or looks likely to happen that suggests the current pattern is going to change.

I'd wager lots of people that didn't want us joining thought the same thing in the early years of membership.

In a couple of years we will possibly have a different colour of govt. They could renegotiate things make some decisions the current lot wouldn't change but wouldn't want to do themselves. If I were a betting man I would have a few quid on us ending up with one of the arrangements that parliament voted against during the Brexit debates. One of the out but not out options.

[EvilC]

I'd wager lots of people that didn't want us joining thought the same thing in the early years of membership.

In a couple of years we will possibly have a different colour of govt. They could renegotiate things make some decisions the current lot wouldn't change but wouldn't want to do themselves. If I were a betting man I would have a few quid on us ending up with one of the arrangements that parliament voted against during the Brexit debates. One of the out but not out options.

I wasn’t alive at the time but reducing trade barriers to enhance trade isn’t exactly a controversial theory. Can nobody explain to me now what the good stuff is and will be and how it is going to offset all the damage? Like, properly explain it. I reckon I’m not that stupid that I can take some of it on board. Because without that it just seems we are waiting for people to f*** things up, and they are making a fairly good job of doing so.

What you've written above seems to be "the absolute lunatics that sponsored this abortion and have damaged the country may no longer be in charge, some other poor b*stard might take it on and f*** it up less". It's not exactly something to make me stand back and go "maybe this isn't such a bad idea after all".

From a purely economic perspective, those that do virtually no damage (SM and CU) but don’t involve membership are just crap versions of being a member. A rule taker with no seat at the table.

Those that don’t involve that result in economic damage and limited upside elsewhere. Brexiteers will say it is betrayal, remainers will tell you it is worse than what you had before.

[chelmsfordhammer91]

I wasn’t alive at the time but reducing trade barriers to enhance trade isn’t exactly a controversial theory. Can nobody explain to me now what the good stuff is and will be and how it is going to offset all the damage? Like, properly explain it. I reckon I’m not that stupid that I can take some of it on board. Because without that it just seems we are waiting for people to **** things up, and they are making a fairly good job of doing so.

From a purely economic perspective, those that do virtually no damage (SM and CU) but don’t involve membership are just crap versions of being a member. A rule taker with no seat at the table.

Those that don’t involve that result in economic damage and limited upside elsewhere. Brexiteers will say it is betrayal, remainers will tell you it is worse than what you had before.

I'm not that clued up either but I think the high level jist on the trade blocc paet was that by leaving the EU, we could get more appropriate trade deals with the rest of the world rather than have to abide by what the EU as an entity negotiate.

However, I have no idea how good or bad the existing deals were for the UK in particular, nor the realistic scope for getting better deals suited more for us by leaving.

[EvilC]

I'm not that clued up either but I think the high level jist on the trade blocc paet was that by leaving the EU, we could get more appropriate trade deals with the rest of the world rather than have to abide by what the EU as an entity negotiate.

However, I have no idea how good or bad the existing deals were for the UK in particular, nor the realistic scope for getting better deals suited more for us by leaving.

That was the argument, which ignored that (1) we had a seat at the top table within the EU (2) geography matters, the closer a country is to you the more you tend to trade with it (3) we lack the negotiating clout due to lack of size that the EU does, the EU is basically one of three global rule-setters in global trade (4) after leaving we are going to be desperate. And we've seen the Australia trade deal, it's terrible.

[MB]

However, I have no idea how good or bad the existing deals were for the UK in particular, nor the realistic scope for getting better deals suited more for us by leaving.

Most of them rolled over on the same terms (to much fanfare...) so it hasn't made much difference other than to (effectively) close off our best market for a lot of UK exports.

Can that be pulled back? Possibly but it won't be quick.

The better argument for me is control. The EU is heading towards closer alignment and not just on trade and our ability to influence that from within was going to be watered down further.

The EU means a lot more for France and Germany than it did for us. They tolerated us due to our economic clout and we wanted a seat at the table to access the market. The expansion East causes tension across the EU but was definitely pulling us into something we'd be uncomfortable with.

It is the idea that we can get that control AND an economic benefit which I struggle with. As I said above, I'd have a lot more respect for the zealots driving the crazy bus if they just admitted the pros and cons rather than painting an, unrealistic, picture of happiness to come.

But then the remainer zealots and their doom and gloom annoy me as well.

[EvilC]

The UK was a pretty big handbrake on the integration though. We were basically a counterweight to the Belgian dude with the glasses and his like.

[MB]

The UK was a pretty big handbrake on the integration though. We were basically a counterweight to the Belgian dude with the glasses and his like.

Except David, call me Dave, Cameron had already started negotiating away our veto and more power has and will be transfered to the Parliament and executive functions and away from Member States having a veto.

Wouldn't have been quick, but our power to be a blocker would have significantly reduced.

[EvilC]

Except David, call me Dave, Cameron had already started negotiating away our veto and more power has and will be transfered to the Parliament and executive functions and away from Member States having a veto.

Wouldn't have been quick, but our power to be a blocker would have significantly reduced.

He had an opt-out on ever closer union, no? How much it would be used is another matter.

With all of this stuff, there is going to be stuff you don’t like. To me it is pretty clear that personally there will be a lot more that I don’t like from leaving than there would staying in.

And in all honesty, talking to a fairly senior civil service bod last week, outsourcing the government of this place doesn’t seem a terrible idea right now.

[MB]

He had an opt-out on ever closer union, no? How much it would be used is another matter.

And given how the Brexit negotiations went, how many holes do you think they'd be in that?

TBH I'm quite cynical of centralised government and the EU is that on a mega scale. Well meaning, but my dealings with them on professional matters suggest they have about as much clue as the average of our lot (which is clearly much higher than the current Government).

[OFT]

And in all honesty, talking to a fairly senior civil service bod last week, outsourcing the government of this place doesn’t seem a terrible idea right now.

Way back in this thread, pre referendum day, the leave remain debate was in full swing and a keen leaver (Bubbs IIRC) asked of a remainer (moi):-
'it all depends on who you wish to be governed by'
Which, I suppose was a very straight forward and pertinent question that at the time I don't think I answered as I thought it doesn't make a lot of difference to most of us.
What it didn't, or couldn't, take into account, was the dreadful mob of charlatans we've lumbered ourselves with because were it possible and with hindsight, the answer would surely be, "anybody but these lunatics"

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

My annoyance around the whole piece is that no one in parliament has been honest.