✍ Manuel Lanzini

[El brooko79]

433 or 4231 I don't mind which. Lanzini has a more obvious role in a 4231.

Then I think about fullbacks, start to weep, the screen goes blank and when it flicks back into life we have 3 ATB and there are only two midfield slots...

I don't think he is a number 10 anymore, but deeper playmaker.
So reckon on a 433 he is best suited.

Not sure he should be starting in the league but definitely Europe. Pretty mad though that in most games this season we have struggled to pass the ball yet he doesn't get on for the last 15 mins to try to make something happen.

8 times we have lost this season and he hasn't got off the bench. With 5 subs you could understand if he is a bit p!ssed.

He needs to be able to leave in the summer and make the most of his career. 29 so got some good years left.

[master]

One of the few players we have that moves into space when we have a throw on whilst everyone else stands static.

[GeeGee78]

As Ozza says, I don't mind a discussion on Lanzini's current place in the squad but it was posted as a thinly veiled attack on Moyes which the poster in question has a habit of doing on multiple threads. It's ****ing tiresome and ruins a bloody good forum when people post like children who can't get their own way.

Things are quite complex when you think of Manu in our team. He has the skill touch and vision, but realistically we dont play the type of game anymore to get the best out of him.

Moyes isnt a ball retention type of coach, so where Manu fits, no idea. He would fit at Brighton for sure. One of their key players was/is a 35 yo Lallana.
They are a far more offensive side and have numbers ans create pockets of space so gives Lallana more time. We dont play that way which negates Manu and Fornals to be honest.

Think people take that as a reason to attack Moyes, reality he doesnt really fit the way we play anymore.
I dont think Moyes gets the best out of flair type of players but alternatively he gels hard working bees into a really solid team and gets best out of somewhat limited players. Thats the flip side.

I also dont think as a squad we are balanced properly and arent as good as we think we are.... individually anyway..objectively I think we are looking at our last results but reality is Moyesy totally over achieved with the squad.

Sorry just a ramble

[GeeGee78]

I don't think he is a number 10 anymore, but deeper playmaker.
So reckon on a 433 he is best suited.

Not sure he should be starting in the league but definitely Europe. Pretty mad though that in most games this season we have struggled to pass the ball yet he doesn't get on for the last 15 mins to try to make something happen.

8 times we have lost this season and he hasn't got off the bench. With 5 subs you could understand if he is a bit p!ssed.

He needs to be able to leave in the summer and make the most of his career. 29 so got some good years left.

Manu doesnt cover as much ground or work as hard as a Soucek and Moyes values those traits more.
We also play a containment game not the passing, move attacking style that would suit Lanzini more.
Hes is highly intelligent, really good technically, but we offer poor movement and poor ball retention, renders Manu limited in our system.

He is still a really good player, we dont play the right football for him

[El brooko79]

Manu doesnt cover as much ground or work as hard as a Soucek and Moyes values those traits more.
We also play a containment game not the passing, move attacking style that would suit Lanzini more.
Hes is highly intelligent, really good technically, but we offer poor movement and poor ball retention, renders Manu limited in our system.

He is still a really good player, we dont play the right football for him

Yep agree completely.
I'm in no doubts why some of our better players are unable to express themselves with the ball.
Not necessarily wrong as its a results business but its a shame as Manu, Paqueta, Fornals, Scamacca, Benrahma, Rice could do some nice interplay if given an opportunity.

[Wilko1304]

I love Manu, no real desire to see him leave. I have two kinda contrasting but also valid opinions of him:

He should have been used more
He lacks creativity and dynamism to be a key player.

His role last year was interesting, he came in to help a team that struggled to pass through midfield after Ogbonna's injury seemed to leave us with only Cresswell and, although not good enough at it yet, Rice who could play from defence and deep midfield. It worked ok, made us better, but he lacks any real direct passing threat and he isn't a particularly dangerous passer.

He does, however, pass and move very well. He finds space, something I don't think any of our midfield, in fact, none of our team are good enough at, Fornals aside. It is a real shame we haven't really seen much of Fornals and/or Lanzini in central areas with Paqueta.

Paqueta is the upgrade, physically more capable, better defender, intricate but direct passing ability and a bit more creative. That's the issue, Lanzini just doesn't quite make the difference in the final third, isn't quite good enough defensively to trust as a key defensive presence.

However, I have probably been critical of Moyes's use of subs his whole time here. Fornals, Emerson, Downes and Lanzini are the current (this season's) victims of it. Tired legs don't get replaced, he's (seemingly) more comfortable with players staying on who are at the pace of the game. I'm not a big fan of his squad management, to be honest. There are games where we could move to CB when we are dominating the ball and the centre backs are in their half for the last 15 minutes, etc etc.

I'd love to see a diamond midfield with a Rice - Paqueta Lanzini/Fornals - Fornals/Benrahma, but it isn't going to happen.

[MB]

However, I have probably been critical of Moyes's use of subs his whole time here. Fornals, Emerson, Downes and Lanzini are the current (this season's) victims of it. Tired legs don't get replaced, he's (seemingly) more comfortable with players staying on who are at the pace of the game. I'm not a big fan of his squad management, to be honest. There are games where we could move to CB when we are dominating the ball and the centre backs are in their half for the last 15 minutes, etc etc.

I'd love to see a diamond midfield with a Rice - Paqueta Lanzini/Fornals - Fornals/Benrahma, but it isn't going to happen.

How many league games have we been behind in? 13? 14?

When we are chasing the game, what are Fornals, Lanzini or Downes going to offer? They are not game changers. "Fresh legs" is fine when you are holding on, but alone it won't change a match you are losing.

Fornals is the most attacking of the three, but if there is a one on one in the 89th minute to equalise, is he the man you want in that position or would you rather have Benrahma or Bowen?

As for the diamond, unless you've found a quality left back called Brazilian and a quality right back called striker so that Sullivan found his cheque book then you are asking for serious pain.

[funky chicken]

I’m more than happy for Lanzini to stay for at least another season, if he is happy to. I know I had him on the list of ‘outs’ in the summer rebuild thread. But that was more of what I ‘think’ will happen with him, instead of what I actually want to happen, as I do think he will go. The lack of minutes Moyes has given Manu this season and after those comments his Father has made, it just all seems to be pointing in that direction.

I have been very surprised at how little Lanzini has been involved this season, after his contributions last season. He was a very key player in our Europa run. I’m not saying he should be in the starting 11 week in and week out. Certainly not in the League. But I absolutely believe he could’ve been brought off the bench more.

I feel he still has something to offer and I love having a player of Manu’s ability in the squad. What a great pro he is as well. I can’t remember him once causing any trouble during his time at the club.

[Crouchend_Hammer]

How many league games have we been behind in? 13? 14?

When we are chasing the game, what are Fornals, Lanzini or Downes going to offer? They are not game changers. "Fresh legs" is fine when you are holding on, but alone it won't change a match you are losing.

All of them are game changers in a different way

Downes can come on, allow us to keep possession so we create more chances
Fornals is the best we have for playing a clever incisive pass to get behind a packed defence
Lanzini can definitely change a game as he is great between the lines and a good finisher

it isn't only out and out attacking players who can be used to change a game. When Liverpool were 3-0 in the Champions League final they brought on a defensive midfielder so they could change the way they played

[Wilko1304]

How many league games have we been behind in? 13? 14?

When we are chasing the game, what are Fornals, Lanzini or Downes going to offer? They are not game changers. "Fresh legs" is fine when you are holding on, but alone it won't change a match you are losing.

Fornals is the most attacking of the three, but if there is a one on one in the 89th minute to equalise, is he the man you want in that position or would you rather have Benrahma or Bowen?

As for the diamond, unless you've found a quality left back called Brazilian and a quality right back called striker so that Sullivan found his cheque book then you are asking for serious pain.

Disagree. It’s seem my solutions for goals as only attacking players. Quite a big problem I have with Moyes, too. There’s approaches that aren’t necessarily attacking, they’re the solutions to help.

Fornals uses the ball faster, tries dangerous and direct passes. Doesn’t matter if ‘name here’ is a better finisher if we never make the chance. What good did that Scamacca and Antonio pair do the other day at Wolves? They might have finished a chance, but we couldn’t make them.

Is Dawson having too much of the ball in those chases? Could we use some overlap pace with Emerson? Could Downes quickly use the recycled ball when it’s coming out which start our attacks faster, stopping teams settling?

Looking for direct and obvious impact means we never make the subtle changes that allow the others to make that move.

Why wouldn’t fresher legs help you chase a game? If Benrahma has gone full pelt for 70 minutes and is playing at 70/80%, is he better than Fornals at his freshest? Maybe that extra step gets you there earlier, maybe it wins the ball back quicker, maybe it sees a better pass cos the head isn’t tired.

It doesn’t even have to be an attacking player. Johnson with a step of pace might get round Bowen on the overlap better than Coufal after 80 minutes of going up and down the flank all day.

The diamond? It’s not wholly different shape and build from a back five, your midfielder is just sitting and holding. And, frankly, you can manage this squad to handle that risk. Moyes might not be able to (not a particular criticism, managers have their systems), but it’s not particularly wild idea.

[El brooko79]

How many league games have we been behind in? 13? 14?

When we are chasing the game, what are Fornals, Lanzini or Downes going to offer? They are not game changers. "Fresh legs" is fine when you are holding on, but alone it won't change a match you are losing.

All 3 offer far better possession than a lot of options.
When we need a game changed for me it's not someone to necessarily to score/assist its to get some controlled attacking possesion. Get in positions to create good chances and score. We have been living off half chances most of the season.

Could certainly argue why do we have to wait till we are behind to try and play with some quality though.

[MB]

Disagree. It’s seem my solutions for goals as only attacking players. Quite a big problem I have with Moyes, too. There’s approaches that aren’t necessarily attacking, they’re the solutions to help.

Moyes might not be able to (not a particular criticism, managers have their systems), but it’s not particularly wild idea.

But I’m looking at it through the lens of Moyes. I have no problem with yours or Crouchie’s points about changing shape, keeping the ball better etc but ultimately it isn’t you or I with the ability to make those changes and the person who can, won’t.

Saying Moyes could do this or could do that is moot. You have to look at the squad and what it is capable of within the context of how the manager will use them. Those three are not game changers in the way Moyes would deploy them.

That’s why regardless of what happens with the rest of the season, I’d move on from Moyes in the Summer. If you or I know exactly what he’ll do in any given situation then you can bet the opposition manager does as well. There has been a subtle shift and I think risk averse managers are being left behind, but when debating why X or Y doesn’t play more we have to recognise we still have a risk averse manager.

[Wilko1304]

But I’m looking at it through the lens of Moyes. I have no problem with yours or Crouchie’s points about changing shape, keeping the ball better etc but ultimately it isn’t you or I with the ability to make those changes and the person who can, won’t.

Saying Moyes could do this or could do that is moot. You have to look at the squad and what it is capable of within the context of how the manager will use them. Those three are not game changers in the way Moyes would deploy them.

That’s why regardless of what happens with the rest of the season, I’d move on from Moyes in the Summer. If you or I know exactly what he’ll do in any given situation then you can bet the opposition manager does as well. There has been a subtle shift and I think risk averse managers are being left behind, but when debating why X or Y doesn’t play more we have to recognise we still have a risk averse manager.

To some extent it’s moot, but then everything on this forum is moot at that point! (It’s not, EVER)

So, yeah, it’s kinda discussing that point. It’s a massive issue if he doesn’t see that, and it’s not like he hasn’t done subtle in-game changes, but they’re often in the middle of a tight game or a defensive move.

I agree with the rest, I would change, unless there’s a big shift of improvement.

[Colours never run]

Wilko

That's pretty much how I view Lanzini and the situation. I've not thought he would be a regular starter like before this season with the arrival of Paqueta and Cornet. But due to injury and poor form to both, as well as to the likes of Bowen, Fornals who have clearly also suffered bad form, there's been a number of times I've thought Lanzini should be given a go knowing he's fit and was in decent form the previous season, as he also showed us in Europe this season knitting the play together with ease.

The other qualities he brings to the Team beyond the way he plays the game is he now has a lot of Premier League experience too which shouldn't be underestimated either. He plays with a calm, joyful way I think would have settled the Team down more at times of low confidence that I think would have rubbed off on others. The other key element of his game which we've seriously lacked at times is keeping the ball/possession. We all know that either the ball sticks to his foot like glue, has a very high pass success rate but he can also win you plenty of fouls in key areas to relieve pressure and allow us to attack set pieces more.

I do also strongly believe the likes of Paqueta and Scamacca would have benefited greatly from playing alongside Lanzini hovering around them. Playing neat triangles around the box that the opposition would have struggled to deal with and in turn giving our 2 important summer signings more time and space to get to grips with our fast paced game.

For me, Lanzini is over his injury after seeing how he produced a decent season for us that culminated in reaching the Semi against Frankfurt/7th place as well as helping the Team beat both Man City and Man Utd in the League Cup playing 46 times in all competitions. If he wasn't up to it, he simply wouldn't have scored and assisted/created as much as he did and we wouldn't have enjoyed quite the same levels of success without him playing as much as he did. And at 29yo, he's clearly still got plenty left in the tank and yet he has been treated all season like a bit part player, even though we have clearly suffered with injuries/poor form and performance. To the point we're now fighting a a relegation scrap without ever really turning to him for help. To me that's a strange development with someone of his undoubted quality, excellent attitude and experience he offers us.

[1895Hammer]

To some extent it’s moot, but then everything on this forum is moot at that point! (It’s not, EVER)

So, yeah, it’s kinda discussing that point. It’s a massive issue if he doesn’t see that, and it’s not like he hasn’t done subtle in-game changes, but they’re often in the middle of a tight game or a defensive move.

I agree with the rest, I would change, unless there’s a big shift of improvement.

We’ll always have financial limits unless the ownership changes very significantly so for me first thing that needs deciding is our shape, Moyes or whoever in charge is it a back four or three with wing backs, decide and build from there, we won’t afford 25 plus top quality players a la Chelsea but we can get to 16-17, enough to compete as best of the rest, we already have quite a few albeit not fully utilised. Assuming decent technical ability is a given we need more pace and athleticism at both full/ wing back positions, in whoever replaces Rice, and at least one forward who alongside Cornet gives us a real threat from the bench when we want to change late in a game. Watching the Mancs change their forwards against Forest again demonstrated how inadequate we are here, but if we started a game with Scamacca, Bowen and Benny and had Cornet, Sarr / Gyokeres and Ings on the bench it’s a very different position to today. It will be another big summer for recruitment, we’ll find out if last year was as random as it looks now, or the first stage of a transition to a younger, quicker and more technically adept outfit.

[Billy Hunt]

Spot on. The poster is at that level since Pellegrini got sacked. Tedious and ***ing tiresome.

If you don't like someone's posts, posting style, or want to debate with them, can't you just ignore them as opposed to gang up and insult them ?

This is a thread about Lanzini, and some are questioning why he is not playing much, which is the managers decision. Cant see much wrong with what CNR is mentioning, certainly nothing which warrants personal stuff aimed at him - unless I am missing something

[DusseldorfHammer]

Playing a diamond in midfield brings huge pressure on both full backs. A diamond including Manu, Benrahma and two forwards makes us super vunerable without the ball, puts so much pressure on Decs. And I doubt we would have enough pace and width. Sounds more like an Serie A type of idea, that isn’t replicable in the Prem, where you simply get bullied in midfield, when you don't have physical enough players in the middle of the pitch and/or high end talent to retain possession.

[MB]

To some extent it’s moot, but then everything on this forum is moot at that point! (It’s not, EVER)

So, yeah, it’s kinda discussing that point. It’s a massive issue if he doesn’t see that, and it’s not like he hasn’t done subtle in-game changes, but they’re often in the middle of a tight game or a defensive move.

I agree with the rest, I would change, unless there’s a big shift of improvement.

Everything I post is…

I just think the danger in these kinds of discussions is we all have a bias towards certain ways of playing and we kind of have to recognise that and that the manager also comes with a bias. It is finding a point where those can be made to work together rather than “Moyes should be playing Lanzini and doing this which will make X and Y play better and then we’ll be great” which I see often on these threads.

But yes I share the Moyes frustration, but I just think when it comes to the squad we are (somehow given the spend in the summer) looking at a group he doesn’t seem fully comfortable with and Lanzini now being on the fringes is sadly part of that.

[MB]

If you don't like someone's posts, posting style, or want to debate with them, can't you just ignore them as opposed to gang up and insult them ?

This is a thread about Lanzini, and some are questioning why he is not playing much, which is the managers decision. Cant see much wrong with what CNR is mentioning, certainly nothing which warrants personal stuff aimed at him - unless I am missing something

Ganging up and name calling is a no no and it happens too much I agree. But when the same arguments are being run about different fringe players by the same poster then I do think it is fair to call that for what it is. Ultimately there is one issue which is how Moyes uses the squad at his disposal whether we are talking Downes, Lanzini, Dawson and Ashby being sold etc. it belongs in the Moyes thread or a thread about the squad (which there are several of).

Having the same discussions on the same issue across multiple threads just does my head in but then it was Groundhog Day yesterday I suppose!

[Burnley Hammer]

I don't think he's ever been a number 10. He can perhaps play the deeper playmaker role as one of the defensive 2 but I don't think we can successfully accommodate that on a permanent basis. Maybe for the occasional game as we have done before. I personally think he's best as a number 8, same as Paqueta, same as Rice, same as Fornals. I'm really surprised we rarely go 4-3-3 with a single defensive midfielder sat in front of the back four and 2 number 8's because we have all the players for it. I'm sick of us trying to play players in that number 10 role. In my opinion we don't have a single natural number 10 in the entire squad.