✍️ Welcome Michail Antonio

[-DL-]

We're not the same when he doesn't play, that's a fact.

Well of course not, it would mean we're playing without a striker - and oddly enough, when we did have another striker in the shape of Haller, he scored goals when he had to come in, we still won games and picked up points and was then dropped by our manager as soon as Antonio was available - despite scoring a worldy in the previous game.

Sell Antonio, and we would have had to have signed a striker sooner than this summer, and if our manager would have been unable to do that, then questions would have had to have been asked. As a club, we fail time and time again in knowing when to sell a player, but instead, we keep for too long and reward them with ridiculously long contracts.

I agree with not giving him a contract until he's 35 but selling him last summer? I think that would be idiotic given GSB's form in signing effective players for us. Now he has a potential strike partner, it'd be interesting to see how he performs.

Well yes, it will be interesting to see how he performs, because according to you, we don't have form in signing effective players, so on that basis, the same needs to apply to this summer's signings - but if he's going to be playing with and not instead of Scamacca, then the burn out issues are still going to be there week in, week out - and another reason for the burn out issue was most likely him jetting off to Jamaica on a frequent basis to play for them. It was no coincidence his form nose-dived after he did that - but hey, the player got what he wanted, even though a fresh and firing Antonio may well have enabled us to get the two points that got us in to Europe's second competition rather than the third.

[Geoff Peters-Moore]

Antonio had the third highest points tally in fantasy football of all premier league strikers for the whole of last season. He must have been doing something right. We all know he is not a natural finisher but he was never that and he shouldn't be slated because if that. He gives much more to the team than the sum of his parts and said himself he would benefit from having could competition for the strikers role. I think he will still perform a useful role this season.

[-DL-]

I think the revisionism is suggesting he was poor in the 2nd half of the season. Was he run into the ground and off the levels of pre-Christmas? Yes.

https://www.kumb.com/squad.php?id=Michail%20Antonio

Reading through these definitely matches my recollection, the goals largely dried up but his impact on the game and the team was still massive. I'd argue that without Antonio's work Bowen doesn't make the England squad for the summer games.

He was poor second half of the season for the most part. Now I don't know who does the match ratings on here, but it's just a subjective opinion of somebody, just like I'm giving a subjective opinion of Antonio.

If I could be bothered to look, I could probably find ratings for him that are worse than that - but I won't, because it's confirmation bias to pick stuff that suits your own argument, especially when it is all subjective.

EDIT: Just seen it's Wilko. I wouldn't take any notice of him...

[Dimension Diver]

All you need to know about Antonio is that he's a very streaky player. He'll look unplayable for a few months then like a pub league player for the next few months. That's how he's always been.

[Billy Hunt]

All you need to know about Antonio is that he's a very streaky player. He'll look unplayable for a few months then like a pub league player for the next few months. That's how he's always been.

Yep, but I'd say he is pretty much that in each and every game... it's not uncommon to groan or laugh at something shocking, then wow at something at the other end of the scale.

He will frustrate his teammates, the crowd and the coaching team at times, but the opposition will breath a sigh of relief when he isn't on the pitch too

[Estuary]

All you need to know about Antonio is that he's a very streaky player. He'll look unplayable for a few months then like a pub league player for the next few months. That's how he's always been.

True enough, but even with Antonio's streakyness he, Bowen and Benrahma got us 40+ goals and made 30+ assists between them. Its been decades since we had such an effective forward line. If we improve on that we'll win something or finish top 5.

There seems to be a view that Antonio not being an orthodox CF holds us back, the above says it doesn't. It is clear his and the teams improvement in the last two seasons are very closely aligned and I think will continue to be, regardless of who we sign.

[mumbles87]

Despite the fact he wasn't a CF, I can't see how you could expect a "lot more" from him than he delivered - is all time top scorer in the Premiership for us not enough?

Because he was packaged as a CF.. we sold every one else and he was played up top. So I expected more. If he was to be our CF

to your later post about him being our all time scorer it sums up how pathetic our goal scoring efforts have been.

sold Kanoute and Defoe too early due to the relegation .. they would have been perfect to get above that by a mile.

a pen taker who spent his entire career here isnt an achievement to outscore.

if we dont sell bowen for example he could easily smash that goal scoring record.

anyways as an option upfront antonio is a good squad player. we arent better with him than without its much of a much. its a squad game. i want to see him rested more or brought on as he should be.. 70th min to cause issues when the defence has had to deal with the rest of our front line for 70 mins and are tiring ..

he is a good squad player but a starting player for a team that we aim to be he is not.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

Well of course not, it would mean we're playing without a striker - and oddly enough, when we did have another striker in the shape of Haller, he scored goals when he had to come in, we still won games and picked up points and was then dropped by our manager as soon as Antonio was available - despite scoring a worldy in the previous game.

Please tell me you're not suggesting that Haller was a better CF for us than Antonio? There was a reason Haller was dropped. He was crap for us. I'm not saying he's a crap player per-se, but was crap for us. Shocking workrate and poor in front of goal If you want to talk about missing sitters, talk about Haller before you mention Antonio.

Sell Antonio, and we would have had to have signed a striker sooner than this summer, and if our manager would have been unable to do that, then questions would have had to have been asked. As a club, we fail time and time again in knowing when to sell a player, but instead, we keep for too long and reward them with ridiculously long contracts.

I disagree. We should have bought a CF anyway. The fact we were playing without a natural CF should be reason enough to buy one with Antonio at least hanging around to give us options. If we had have sold say Antonio and signed Haller that would have been a disaster.

Well yes, it will be interesting to see how he performs, because according to you, we don't have form in signing effective players

I should have said effective centre-forwards. In no particular order ...

Ajeti
Yarmolenko
Haller
Carroll
Valencia
Ayew

Hardly a glittering list of effective centre-forwards

so on that basis, the same needs to apply to this summer's signings - but if he's going to be playing with and not instead of Scamacca, then the burn out issues are still going to be there week in, week out - and another reason for the burn out issue was most likely him jetting off to Jamaica on a frequent basis to play for them. It was no coincidence his form nose-dived after he did that - but hey, the player got what he wanted, even though a fresh and firing Antonio may well have enabled us to get the two points that got us in to Europe's second competition rather than the third.

So would you be happy with just one regular CF in the squad?

[westham,eggyandchips]

LWB against Watford in Moyes' first spell during Masuaku's suspension.

Ahhh yes.

Could be an option going forward.

[Italian Hammer]

Antonio has played wherever we have asked him: right-back, right wing back, on the left, on the right and up front.

Coming from non-league and not an academy, by his own admission he is not the most technically gifted, but he always gives it his all.

For what we paid, he has paid us back many times more. Just think back to project re-start and the run of form he went on, the goals he scored or contributed to, and the points we got as a result.

Going forward, Antonio can and should cover any position out of left wing, striker or right wing depending on fitness,form and needs.

I would say he has been one of most successful signings of recent years.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

Because he was packaged as a CF.. we sold every one else and he was played up top. So I expected more. If he was to be our CF

Come on, you can hardly blame that on Antonio. That's just poor management on the part of GSB and possibly Moyes.

to your later post about him being our all time scorer it sums up how pathetic our goal scoring efforts have been.

sold Kanoute and Defoe too early due to the relegation .. they would have been perfect to get above that by a mile.

a pen taker who spent his entire career here isnt an achievement to outscore.

if we dont sell bowen for example he could easily smash that goal scoring record.

That's as maybe but surely the fact he is, isn't something to be seen as a downside surely? As for Bowen smashing that record, I sincerely hope he does but Bowen's success has been assisted by Antonio. Not saying Bowen isn't a great player, far from it but as well as Antonio and to an extent Benrahma has got us a respectable goal tally this season. I think our defence is what really needs addressing, certainly if you want to heap a lot blame on Antonio.

anyways as an option upfront antonio is a good squad player. we arent better with him than without its much of a much. its a squad game. i want to see him rested more or brought on as he should be.. 70th min to cause issues when the defence has had to deal with the rest of our front line for 70 mins and are tiring ..

I disagree with that. I think at present he has been an asset to the side and you can't say with any conviction that we aren't better with him or without him. We are not the same team without him, as I pointed out to DL above.

he is a good squad player but a starting player for a team that we aim to be he is not.

Not even when paired with another decent CF which is what will happen next season?

[-DL-]

Please tell me you're not suggesting that Haller was a better CF for us than Haller? There was a reason Haller was dropped. He was crap for us. I'm not saying he's a crap player per-se, but was crap for us. Shocking workrate and poor in front of goal If you want to talk about missing sitters, talk about Haller before you mention Antonio.

I never said that at all. I said that when Antono wasn't available when we had Haller, he came in and scored goals. Which was his job. He was signed as an out and out goal scorer, and he did ok for us, and as he's since shown elsewhere at the highest level - he's rather good at it. As an aside - Antonio's strike rate in 1 in 3.73 in his career with us. Haller was 1 in 3.85, despite only having a bit part to play for the last 3rd and more of his time with us. So someone who is poor in front of goal has just a 0.13 worse strike rate than the sole centre forward main goal scorer. Not really a compliment to Antonio is it, if Haller was so poor, yet their goal scoring stats are so close.

So would you be happy with just one regular CF in the squad?

Well going by your reckoning from previous post on this thread, we haven't had even one. One moment you've said he isn't a centre forward, he's just playing as one, now you're saying would I have been happy with just one centre forward.

I'm confused.

But to directly answer that question - no, we should never have sold Haller.

[-DL-]

We are not the same team without him.

We've not had another CF to come in when he's been missing, that's why!

We wouldn't be the same team if we replaced our goalie with Cresswell either, but that doesn't make our keepers the bees-knees, does it?

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

I never said that at all. I said that when Antono wasn't available when we had Haller, he came in and scored goals. Which was his job. He was signed as an out and out goal scorer, and he did ok for us, and as he's since shown elsewhere at the highest level - he's rather good at it. As an aside - Antonio's strike rate in 1 in 3.75 in his career with us. Haller was 3.85, despite only having a bit part to play for the last 3rd and more of his time with us. So someone who is poor in front of goal has just a 0.13 worse strike rate than the sole centre forward main goal scorer. Not really a compliment to Antonio is it, if Haller was so poor, yet their goal scoring stats are so close.

If you're seriously comparing the strike-rate of a natural CF to a player who's played in almost every position as us, that's a bit skewed. Haller's work rate was shocking and I seriously doubt we'd have got 40-plus goals last season with Haller and no Antonio.

Well going by your reckoning from previous post on this thread, we haven't had even one.

Well, from the time Antonio was with us, pick from this lot an effective CF

Ajeti
Yarmolenko
Haller
Carroll
Valencia
Ayew

One moment you've said he isn't a centre forward, he's just playing as one, now you're saying would I have been happy with just one centre forward.

I'm confused.

He's not a natural CF playing as CF. What's so hard to understand about that?

But to directly answer that question - no, we should never have sold Haller.

Best thing we ever did IMO. He just wasn't suited to the way we play. As I said before, didn't offer as many options at Antonio, he workrate was poor and concentration wasn't great at all for us.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

We've not had another CF to come in when he's been missing, that's why!

We wouldn't be the same team if we replaced our goalie with Cresswell either, but that doesn't make our keepers the bees-knees, does it?

I'm talking about his contributions and well you know it. When he plays, his impact on defences, his tackles and possession are notable compared to say Yamalenko (who actually played as CF with Dynamo Kiev).

[mumbles87]

I'm talking about his contributions and well you know it. When he plays, his impact on defences, his tackles and possession are notable compared to say Yamalenko (who actually played as CF with Dynamo Kiev).

Whilst this may or may not be true. antonio far too often ran himself into the ground chasing the ball when it was impossible to get. which impacted his ability to be able to play half the time as he over did it.

I preferred it when he learned a bit when to chase and when to not.

he isnt by any means a CF .

arnie was by far superior in every aspect as a footballer. he could create out of nothing

antonio reminds me not only of CC but of harewood. Fantastic pacey player but soon as he has to think forget it.

that said if its a front 3 of him , bowen and scamacca (sp) with bowen and him roaming then im up for that.

[LeonRivers]

He’ll come good this season as he won’t be flogged to death game after game.

This. I reckon we could halve the number of minutes he plays this season and still achieve last season’s goal contributions from him. Early season, when he was fresh, his output G/A was high. This dropped as he tired. Imagine the same this season as we bed Scamacca in gently. Same prolific output early season, and then reduced starts later in the season keeping him fresh, we should see better numbers from him. We’d be basically adding Scamacca’s goals for the season on top of last season’s numbers - no reduction elsewhere.

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

This. I reckon we could halve the number of minutes he plays this season and still achieve last season’s goal contributions from him. Early season, when he was fresh, his output G/A was high. This dropped as he tired. Imagine the same this season as we bed Scamacca in gently. Same prolific output early season, and then reduced starts later in the season keeping him fresh, we should see better numbers from him. We’d be basically adding Scamacca’s goals for the season on top of last season’s numbers - no reduction elsewhere.

That's assuming Scamacca is an effective loan striker for us.

[Bubbles Fortuna]

That's assuming Scamacca is an effective loan striker for us.

I hope we don't have to loan Scamacca out!

[Phil S]

my take...

I don't think Moyes would be too bothered if he never scored. More what he does to defences. Everything good v Sevilla at home came through Antonio, absolutely everything. Lyon away he was fantastic, unreal effort.
But, it was all on his shoulders, it was too much, he needs rest and play.