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Re: Michail Antonio

Post by Greatest Cockney Rip Off »

mumbles87 wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:20 am for me its what role he is playing depends on what i expect for him.

When he was filling in for haller during injury I expected not a lot and was surprised with his output.

then he kept him out the team due to form.

when we sold haller , didnt buy a replacement and gave him the number 9 shirt basically saying antonio is no longer a player who plays everywhere but our out and out CF I expected a lot more from him than he delivered.

now he is part of a strikers team I expect slightly less once again.
To be fair, keeping Haller out of the squad wasn't difficult. My nan could have kept Haller out of the squad and she died in 1970.

You hit the nail on the head when you said "when we sold Haller, didn't buy a replacement ". That was the crux of it. GSB thinking they could trouser some money by not buying a replacement and relying solely on Antonio which IMO was a big mistake. Despite the fact he wasn't a CF, I can't see how you could expect a "lot more" from him than he delivered - is all time top scorer in the Premiership for us not enough?
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Re: Michail Antonio

Post by -DL- »

Greatest Cockney Rip Off wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:02 am I really don't get the hate for Antonio on here, saying he's finished and can't do a job for us now. He's a handful on the ball whichever way you look at it. He certainly draws defenders out of position and if we'd have had someone else up front we'd all be singing his praises as to how he holds the ball up well and is strong on the ball.

You could tell last season towards the end he was burnt out. It'd be interesting to see how he performs with another forward partner this season.

He was never an out and out centre-forward and I think, given the circumstances he's done a fantastic job. Thirteen goals last season and ten the previous two isn't bad for a centre-forward who isn't a centre-forward. It's worth remembering he's currently West Ham United's all-time top scorer in the Premier League.
Why is it yet again, it has to be polarised and anything that's not singing Antonio's praises to the hilt has to be classed as 'hate'? He's had an 18 month purple patch throughout his entire career. That's not hate, that's facts. His purple patch ended in December last year, and scored just four league goals after Boxing Day. That's not 'hate', that's stating a fact.

I'd also argue that if any other striker we had only scored four league goals after Boxing Day, questions would be asked about them too.

As for him being our top PL goal scorer, the fact he took that record from Penalty King Mark Noble is nothing to crow about - it's more indicative of how much **** we've had playing for us up front since 1992. It's hardly a high bar, is it?
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Re: Michail Antonio

Post by Crouchend_Hammer »

-DL- wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 1:34 pm Well he's not been proving them wrong since January this year, nor in pre-season. Maybe he'll have another purple patch again.

We should have sold him last summer when his stock was high, rather than extend his contract to keeps him at the club until he's 35.

Hopefully he becomes back up to Scamacca rather than the other way around, and playing much less will do him good.
Personally think he played well most of last season even when he wasn't scoring. We were still scoring goals as a team and he was causing mayhem
He did finish the season reasonably well in terms of goals - 3 in 6 wasn't it?

he got 16 goals last season and i expect him to get close to that again
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Re: Michail Antonio

Post by e17 »

Good post, DL.

I do think Mic is partly a victim of our recruitment process with how much he’s been pushed as a Lone Ranger upfront. The downside of that is there’s only so much steam in that and tactically it’s had us found out when we’ve needed a Plan B.
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Re: Michail Antonio

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Crouchend_Hammer wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:57 am Personally think he played well most of last season even when he wasn't scoring.
Revisionary. He was bloody awful for the most part in the second half of the season. Sending a boxer dog on the field causes havoc, doesn't win you games though.

I get it's not his fault we had nobody else, but it is his fault when he misses sitters, one on ones and loads of other opportunities as often as I miss my gob when eating Bolognese.
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Re: Michail Antonio

Post by S-H »

Antonio should be judged on more than just his goals, it's how he occupies defenders, for the likes of Bowen, Fornals and Benrahma.

He has been a vital cog in how we play over the last three years, stepping into yet another new role, for the team, and quite frankly excelling in that role.

He has been one of the most effective forwards in the Premier League over the last 2 and a bit years.

Signing Scamacca will only make him better, and more effective, in my opinion.

Still has a lot to give.
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Re: Michail Antonio

Post by Billy Hunt »

Crouchend_Hammer wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:57 am Personally think he played well most of last season even when he wasn't scoring. We were still scoring goals as a team and he was causing mayhem
He did finish the season reasonably well in terms of goals - 3 in 6 wasn't it?

he got 16 goals last season and i expect him to get close to that again
13 goals wasn't it, 10 of which were in the league - which is an OK return from 47 appearances, from a guy that's not a natural goalscorer.

But arguably that should have been a fair few higher given some pretty poor misses.
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Re: Michail Antonio

Post by S-H »

Billy Hunt wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:11 am
But arguably that should have been a fair few higher given some pretty poor misses.
Probably would have been if he had been sharing the role with another player, instead of being flogged to death.
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Re: Michail Antonio

Post by Crouchend_Hammer »

-DL- wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:02 am Revisionary. He was bloody awful for the most part in the second half of the season. Sending a boxer dog on the field causes havoc, doesn't win you games though.

I get it's not his fault we had nobody else, but it is his fault when he misses sitters, one on ones and loads of other opportunities as often as I miss my gob when eating Bolognese.
Not revisionary at all
Plenty of match threads where he was praised, especially in Europe
I don't just judge him on goals
Was he as good as pre Christmas? No, clearly noy - but no one except Bowen was
Was he a key part of our attacking threat? Yes, especially in terms of creating space for Bowen to really shine

The reason we had such poor results second half of the season was because we couldn't defend, our LB fell apart and our midfield went AWOL
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Re: Michail Antonio

Post by Crouchend_Hammer »

Billy Hunt wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:11 am 13 goals wasn't it, 10 of which were in the league - which is an OK return from 47 appearances, from a guy that's not a natural goalscorer.

But arguably that should have been a fair few higher given some pretty poor misses.
13 yes, my mistake. I included 3 Jamaica goals in the 16

Did he have any more blatant misses than anyone else? I don't remember any real clear cut ones. Certainly not when compared to Bowen or Lanzini for example

Antonio was absolutely instrumental in the success Bowen enjoyed. It looked to me as though his role was tweaked as the season went along to be more of a support player to Bowen than an out and out striker. There is no way Bowen scores all those goals post Christmas without Antonio doing all the donkey work for him
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Re: Michail Antonio

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Crouchend_Hammer wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:15 am The reason we had such poor results second half of the season was because we couldn't defend, our LB fell apart and our midfield went AWOL
How I see it too. I also don’t think enough attention is giving to how shattered Soucek was considering the amount of miles he runs per game. When his levels dropped (understandably) we were under more pressure alongside teams targeting Cresswell.

Which makes it harder for Antonio up top, all of it links together.

Hopefully this year, Downes is able to lighten the load, Scamacca can share the load and Kostic/Polish guy can provide more output than most of our attackers.

Agree with everyone about the finishing though, it’s comical at times.
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Re: Michail Antonio

Post by e17 »

Crouchend_Hammer wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:15 amThe reason we had such poor results second half of the season was because we couldn't defend, our LB fell apart and our midfield went AWOL
Same as it ever was.

Worrying beyond the tweets and decent stuff that these remain the areas we’re not closer to strengthening.

But FWIW Crouchy, personally I’d add Antonio in with Cress and Arthur as a player who, if we are planning on doing anything beyond staying static, needs to be a useful squad member. Nothing more. He looked puffed out to me for huge spells after Christmas.
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Re: Michail Antonio

Post by Greatest Cockney Rip Off »

-DL- wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:56 am Why is it yet again, it has to be polarised and anything that's not singing Antonio's praises to the hilt has to be classed as 'hate'? He's had an 18 month purple patch throughout his entire career. That's not hate, that's facts. His purple patch ended in December last year, and scored just four league goals after Boxing Day. That's not 'hate', that's stating a fact.

I'd also argue that if any other striker we had only scored four league goals after Boxing Day, questions would be asked about them too.

As for him being our top PL goal scorer, the fact he took that record from Penalty King Mark Noble is nothing to crow about - it's more indicative of how much **** we've had playing for us up front since 1992. It's hardly a high bar, is it?
We're not the same when he doesn't play, that's a fact. Yes that is largely down to GSB and their dealings in the transfer market but his "purple patch ended in December last year, and scored just four league goals after Boxing Day" could largely be put down to burnout. He looked knackered in some games as his workrate is high and for a player who's effectively being played out of position at the time, hasn't done too badly. It's not as if he's a donkey and contributes nothing. He's a handful, is strong on the ball, holds it up well, draws defenders out of position and works his arse off.

I agree with not giving him a contract until he's 35 but selling him last summer? I think that would be idiotic given GSB's form in signing effective players for us. Now he has a potential strike partner, it'd be interesting to see how he performs.
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Re: Michail Antonio

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Crouchend_Hammer wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:15 am Not revisionary at all
Plenty of match threads where he was praised, especially in Europe
I don't just judge him on goals
Was he as good as pre Christmas? No, clearly noy - but no one except Bowen was
Was he a key part of our attacking threat? Yes, especially in terms of creating space for Bowen to really shine

The reason we had such poor results second half of the season was because we couldn't defend, our LB fell apart and our midfield went AWOL
If we're using match threads as a source of reference, then he was equally ****.

Funny, because I do judge centre forwards on goals, as that is their job and why they take the number 9 shirt.

When you say our midfield went awol, you mean the midfield with Rice and Soucek, the world class marauding box to box midfielder and our Czec international that we shouldn't sell for whatever cost? :shock:

No, surely not...

#sarcasm

There is a lot of revisionism around Antonio - tons of it. Never have I said he is a bad player, ever - although I don't think, and never have thought he is this superstar either - aside from his purple patch - I think a lot of the credit for him actually stems from not his ability as a footballer, which in my humble opinion is extremely limited, but the fact he always has a smile on his face, and does silly things, silly goal celebrations and crashes his Lambo in a snowman suit. He gets a lot of credit because he seems like a decent bloke. The Carlton Cole effect, if you like - whom before he had a steaming head, was vilified on here - and eventually won us around with his personality - pretty much like Antonio - in fact, I think the parallels of Cole are not limited to that either - as Cole also had a purple patch that got him in to the England squad, but aside from that period under Zola, was an extremely limited footballer - but we eventually took to him because he made us smile.
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Re: Michail Antonio

Post by Rust »

Wasn't there a stat floating around that our results were way better when Antonio had a week's rest between games?

That's what Scamacca allows - give Antonio proper rest and let him play no more than 100 or so minutes a week and he'll be just as effective.
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Re: Michail Antonio

Post by Danny's Dyer Acting »

I think the revisionism is suggesting he was poor in the 2nd half of the season. Was he run into the ground and off the levels of pre-Christmas? Yes.

https://www.kumb.com/squad.php?id=Michail%20Antonio

Reading through these definitely matches my recollection, the goals largely dried up but his impact on the game and the team was still massive. I'd argue that without Antonio's work Bowen doesn't make the England squad for the summer games.
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Re: Michail Antonio

Post by Billy Hunt »

Crouchend_Hammer wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:19 am 13 yes, my mistake. I included 3 Jamaica goals in the 16

Did he have any more blatant misses than anyone else? I don't remember any real clear cut ones. Certainly not when compared to Bowen or Lanzini for example

Antonio was absolutely instrumental in the success Bowen enjoyed. It looked to me as though his role was tweaked as the season went along to be more of a support player to Bowen than an out and out striker. There is no way Bowen scores all those goals post Christmas without Antonio doing all the donkey work for him
Yep, two pretty simple one on ones that were delivered to an unmarked Antonio in the box by Benrahma spring immediately to mind. They will not be the only ones, but they are as memorable as those glaring Lanzini and Bowen misses.
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Re: Michail Antonio

Post by Georgee Paris »

He’s a bit older now so make that 90 mins. Or just give him a half here and there.
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Re: Michail Antonio

Post by Crouchend_Hammer »

Danny's Dyer Acting wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:32 am

Reading through these definitely matches my recollection, the goals largely dried up but his impact on the game and the team was still massive. I'd argue that without Antonio's work Bowen doesn't make the England squad for the summer games.
Almost certainly
Antonio was not really playing as an out and out striker post Christmas
Our formation was more focused on Antonio making space to get Bowen into scoring positions. And it was effective
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Re: Michail Antonio

Post by Billy Hunt »

-DL- wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:30 am
There is a lot of revisionism around Antonio - tons of it. Never have I said he is a bad player, ever - although I don't think, and never have thought he is this superstar either - aside from his purple patch - I think a lot of the credit for him actually stems from not his ability as a footballer, which in my humble opinion is extremely limited, but the fact he always has a smile on his face, and does silly things, silly goal celebrations and crashes his Lambo in a snowman suit. He gets a lot of credit because he seems like a decent bloke. The Carlton Cole effect, if you like - whom before he had a steaming head, was vilified on here - and eventually won us around with his personality - pretty much like Antonio - in fact, I think the parallels of Cole are not limited to that either - as Cole also had a purple patch that got him in to the England squad, but aside from that period under Zola, was an extremely limited footballer - but we eventually took to him because he made us smile.
Good summing up and comparison DL

Cole, Antonio will never make a list of West Ham's greatest - but they ought to make a list of our best value purchases and good blokes
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