Lukasz Fabianski signs

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Re: Lukasz Fabianski signs

Post by HammerAl » Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:15 am

I think some will only rate a keeper if they’re seeing them make flashy top-corner saves week in, week out. One reason why Fab doesn’t and hasn’t got as much credit as he deserves throughout his career is that he makes most things look so easy. How he makes low shots/crosses stick to him, when a lot of keepers would parry, is world class. He’s better at commanding his box than he’s given credit for, too. And his positioning is so good that he’s very rarely beaten by free kicks or absolute worldy goals (other than Mount’s, which would have beaten most keepers in world football). Areola will become no.1 at some point, but Fab still deserves to be it for now.

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Re: Lukasz Fabianski signs

Post by MB » Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:19 am

I was quite critical of Fabianski last season; especially saving low down he looked like the injuries had taken their toll.

This season there have been a couple of times where I thought he could have done better, but he has also made a few worldies so overall it comes out slightly in his favour.

In terms of the goals, I’d look at Antonio being on his heels and not challenging the header (Silva gets between Antonio and Diop, but Diop is picking up Rudiger) for the first.

For the second, you have to question how Mount is left in enough space to hit such a sweet volley. The play is switched quickly, but still. As others have said it always looks bad when a keeper is beaten at their near post but I don’t see any keeper saving that.

I think like the criticism of Antonio, Moyes, Cresswell etc there are some who chose the “Areola is the better keeper” hill to die on and cannot help but come back to it. Especially with goal keepers you just cannot judge game by game even if you think Fabianski has a case to answer from the game yesterday.

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Re: Lukasz Fabianski signs

Post by S-H » Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:22 am

MB, if Johnson isn't injured, he's back covering, meaning Mount doesn't have the time needed to take that shot so cleanly, its just unfortunate.

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Re: Lukasz Fabianski signs

Post by Aztec Hammer » Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:23 am

He’s still excellent with anything near his frame. That save against Brighton was magnificent. He’s also one of the more fundamentally secure keepers I’ve ever seen West Ham, probably the most.

But I am concerned by his ability to react and athletically get across goal to make reflex saves where he needs to move before diving. I think it’s hurt us a few times this season and whilst it is possibly a bit unfair to lay too much blame on him for the first two goals, I do think Areola possibly would have saved one or even both of them.

Areola’s performance against Man City and his performances for Fulham last season were outstanding. He’s been a bit shaky with his decision making for crosses but it’s hard to know if that has been eagerness to impress in the few opportunities he has had or inherent erratic nature.

I would like to see Areola be our No. 1 but it’s probably not the right moment to replace Fab. He isn’t dropping clangers.

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Re: Lukasz Fabianski signs

Post by HammerAl » Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:27 am

And that’s it, Aztec, as soon as he’s dropping clangers then Areola will replace him. There’s a big difference between a clanger and ‘they possibly could/should have done better’.

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Re: Lukasz Fabianski signs

Post by Diogenes » Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:40 am

I thought he was very tidy today and has been all season. His distribution, for me, has always been his biggest weakness but he has been and still is one of our most consistent performers. I believe the players trust him and that is good enough for me. Areola's time will come (probably when Fab's back goes again, which it will), but until then I trust Moyes pick.

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Re: Lukasz Fabianski signs

Post by -DL- » Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:46 am

As in usual KUMB style, the opinions are polarised. Fab's poor, Fabs's great, with the usual lack of middle ground.

Fab has his moments of excellence and he has made a few fine saves this season. There have also been times where he's just showed his reactions are not once what they were along with his agility and reactions being that split second behind what they used to be. There's no shame in that as age catches up with you - but he's already conceded himself that he's not the keeper he was, with the fitness he once had, but retiring from International Football.

There have been a few moments this season where he could have done better, where a keeper with just an extra couple of percent of agility, and extra split second of reaction time, would have prevented some of the goals we've conceded.

That's not to say he's poor, and just because he's made some saves doesn't make an excellent keeper anyway. Would a more agile keeper with quicker feet have stopped any of the goals today? Maybe, maybe not - but there's certainly been times this season where the answer to that is a definite yes.

That doesn't make him a poor keeper, it makes him a keeper that is on the decline, and as much as a fine servant that he has been, no player can play on and keep their abilities forever at the highest level.

For club that has ambitions for the Top 4 and CL qualification, you have to ask yourself the question, would he be number one for Tottenham, Arsenal, Man Utd - our direct rivals for the final Top 4 spot - and of course the answer to that is no, of course he wouldn't. He'd be a great signing for Wolves, Villa, Palace, and the next tier down though - but by our manager's own admission - we're meant to be Top 4 challengers this season - so it's not me personally that's put us in to the CL Qualifying team bracket, it's our manager himself. Would Areola? I think quite possibly - but of course you could say why did he go to Fulham, then us instead of one of those teams? Well the answer to that would obviously be you only get a move to a team if they're in the market at that very moment - but then we also have signings made in the last couple of years that would get in those teams, but I very much doubt we'd use the same methodology with them either, as Soucek, and Zouma, at the very least, would get in to our direct rivals sides right now, no question.

I don't think with Fab in goal, that we would have got through against Man City that wonderful night a couple of months ago. Areola was class in that game - and he had the look of a keeper that has just that little bit more ability than Fab - but again, that's not a criticism of Fab, and there's no shame in there being better players than you in your position.

If memory serves me, Fab has not yet put us in a position this season where his slight drop off in performance from his peak has cost us points - unlike his performance against Liverpool last season where he went full-on Roberto - so we've got away with it thus far as we've outscored the opposition - but once that happens, I could see Moyes sticking this new bloke in - maybe not next game, but not far down the line.

He has had more games this season where he has looked a little slow and a little rocky - like the striker, winger, defender that whilst still has some fantastic moments in a game, has lost that proverbial half a yard of pace.

We have a Number 2, whom in my opinion is the more agile, overall more rounded and better keeper than Fab. Saying that doesn't mean I think Fab is poor, rubbish or whatever other superlatives, nor does it mean Areola is the best thing since sliced bread.

It's a nice 'problem' for want of a better word, to have - and Areola's day will come pretty soon when he does become our main man between the sticks - but as I may have said once or twice before in this post - that doesn't make Fabianski poor, it means we've someone better, which is a good thing right?

Of course, I know there's no room for balance on here recently, with the perma-positives that won't hear any form of criticism levelled at our players, who then belittle and go down the 'Spursy' road, with self-awareness totally lost on them that they're just as bad as the perma-negatives that also go shouting down people.

There's a whole lot of middle ground to be had, and this forum would be such a nicer place if people didn't nail flags to the masts so often and be so black and white, whilst ignoring the grey.

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Re: Lukasz Fabianski signs

Post by hammer1975 » Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:03 am

Good post DL

Reading a few of the posts I think that some of the polarisation potentially comes from Areola being only on loan with option and a concern that he won’t stay if he doesn’t get the number one spot soon. For that reason a few really want Areola in asap.

On the flip side, dropping Fab effectively ‘ends’ his West Ham career to a large degree. That’s more than switching back and forth between the likes of Coufal and Johnson (for example). So some will defend Fab more than is perhaps justified.

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Re: Lukasz Fabianski signs

Post by 'stone hammer » Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:21 am

I agree with the sentiment DL, particularly regarding criticism towards players, which as you say, there is no absolute right or wrong which leaves room for debate, and that leads me onto:

'He has had more games this season where he has looked a little slow and a little rocky'. I'd disagree with that :crossed:

If you had said that at the end of last season, I'd think you were actually being quite generous to Fabianski. It certainly looked like the time had come, like Noble, for him to be second choice.

His form this season has taken me by surprise, I think he's come close to emulating the form of his first season, not quite, but close. Just my opinion.
Of course, I know there's no room for balance on here recently, with the perma-positives that won't hear any form of criticism levelled at our players, who then belittle and go down the 'Spursy' road, with self-awareness totally lost on them that they're just as bad as the perma-negatives that also go shouting down people.
Very accurately and succinctly put, and I hope I haven't come across like that with Fabianski, particularly as I've criticised Antonio in the past couple of weeks and have been met by exactly that.

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Re: Lukasz Fabianski signs

Post by Centre Half » Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:33 am

He should have saved the second Chelsea goal, there’s absolutely no doubt about that. From that angle the keeper shouldn’t be getting beat at the near post, regardless of how good the strike was.

I have thought for a year or so that he is on the decline. Yes he is not making absolute howlers, but certainly there are many more examples like yesterday where a slow reaction has cost us. At this level a decline of 1% is going to cost us.

I get he has been a reliable goalkeeper for us, but if Areola is the more capable goalkeeper at this moment then he needs to play. We are a club that is striving to qualify for Champions League football, ultimately we need to be ruthless in our decisions if it’s going to make us better on the pitch.

One goal could be the difference between achieving something or not this season. Make sure the best goalkeeper plays.

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Re: Lukasz Fabianski signs

Post by ornchurch ammer » Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:52 am

Cheapest, and laziest, quote in football. “Keeper shouldn’t be beaten at near post”. Really?
He’s positioned for a shot that could have been placed anywhere across the goal and was beaten by how quickly Mount hit it and the pace of the strike. Give Mount credit.

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Re: Lukasz Fabianski signs

Post by Centre Half » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:00 am

ornchurch ammer wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:52 am
Cheapest, and laziest, quote in football. “Keeper shouldn’t be beaten at near post”. Really?
He’s positioned for a shot that could have been placed anywhere across the goal and was beaten by how quickly Mount hit it and the pace of the strike. Give Mount credit.
Don’t think the positioning was an issue, albeit I’m no goalkeeper.

The issue was that he should be reacting quicker to get down and save that at the near post. It was a good strike no doubt, but a top keeper should be agile enough to save that eight or nine times out of ten for me.

If it was an isolated incident I don’t think it would be being talked about so much. For me it’s clear there is a bit of decline creeping into his game which is causing regular incidents for which you could question the goalkeeper. None are howlers, but there are legitimate questions to be asked on whether the keeper was slow or could do slightly better.

Based on the above, rather than any isolated goals or incidents, I think we need to seriously think about changing the goalkeeper.

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Re: Lukasz Fabianski signs

Post by 'stone hammer » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:01 am

ornchurch ammer wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:52 am
Cheapest, and laziest, quote in football. “Keeper shouldn’t be beaten at near post”. Really?
Quite. Ultimately as Fabianski scrambles across the goal, in that 1-2 seconds he has to consider:

- Mount shoots first time, could go anywhere across the goal
- Mount takes a touch and shoots, in which case Fab has to consider coming out of goal to close him down
- Mount squares the ball for another Chelsea player, meaning if he fully commits to blocking a shot to the near post, the rest of the goal is wide open

It's just not as simple as 'near post, should've saved it'.

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Re: Lukasz Fabianski signs

Post by Crouchend_Hammer » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:06 am

Outside or the top three, I can't think of a keeper I would definitely swap him for

Lloris? Not much in it
Ramsdale? No, regardless of the OTT plaudits he is getting
Schmeichel? - probably tbf
Pickford? No
Martinez? No
De Gea? Probably not at the moment

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Re: Lukasz Fabianski signs

Post by CarltonColesLeftFoot » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:33 am

I agree with the comment that just because its near post doesnt mean it should be saved. It had power on it, I think its deceptive because he side foots it, and if he hit it cleanly on the laces, yet had the same pace and trajectory, we'd be a little more understanding of the goal.

Fab is quality, yet on the decline from where he was a while ago, yet on current ability levels is still the best goalkeeper we've had of the past 10 years. The fact that we have Areola in the background keeping him honest is a god send and good future planning for Moyes. I'm happy to keep Fab in goal for a while, and have Areola take the reigns next year or sooner if Fab declines further.

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Re: Lukasz Fabianski signs

Post by S-H » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:47 am

Before Mount hit it, did anyone have any idea where he was going to put it? I certainly didn't.

Hitting the ball accurately on the volley, of course takes skill, but it also requires an element of luck too, as good as it was, it could quite easily have ended up in row A.

For a keeper, it takes incredible reactions to get anywhere near a shot like that, how on earth do you anticipate where the ball is going to go, and react accordingly in a matter of seconds, all from 12 yards out too?

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Re: Lukasz Fabianski signs

Post by -DL- » Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:54 am

S-H wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:47 am
Before Mount hit it, did anyone have any idea where he was going to put it? I certainly didn't.
We're not top level goal keepers with hundreds of games under our belts. Plus you were pissed and probably didn't even know what day it was either.
S-H wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:47 am
For a keeper, it takes incredible reactions to get anywhere near a shot like that, how on earth do you anticipate where the ball is going to go, and react accordingly in a matter of seconds, all from 12 yards out too?
That's the talent and abilities that top level PL and international keepers have. Much like the best F1 drivers like Lewis and Max when they save their car from a spin, when as the Mazepins go crunch in to the gravel.

I do sometimes think us mere minions, when basing opinions on themselves, seem to forget just how highly tuned and at another level sports people are when they are at the elite end of the spectrum. They can think and react in a millisecond. That's what makes the best, the best what sets them apart. It's the same in all elite sports, without a shadow of a doubt. That extra 1-2% that makes all the difference, and when you start to lose that, it becomes noticeable.

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Re: Lukasz Fabianski signs

Post by Albie Beck » Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:07 pm

It's a big call to change your keeper unless for injury/suspension, far bigger than for outfield positions. There needs to be a serious loss of form before that happens. And it hasn't.

Areola's time will come, and meanwhile he's getting plenty of pitch time with our progress on the cup fronts so he's probably quite happy at the mo. So from the team's point of view there's no need to change at the moment, and thankfully Moyes shows no sign of doing so.

It's mostly people wanting to play with a new shiny toy. :D

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Re: Lukasz Fabianski signs

Post by funky chicken » Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:09 pm

-DL- wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:46 am
As in usual KUMB style, the opinions are polarised. Fab's poor, Fabs's great, with the usual lack of middle ground.

Fab has his moments of excellence and he has made a few fine saves this season. There have also been times where he's just showed his reactions are not once what they were along with his agility and reactions being that split second behind what they used to be. There's no shame in that as age catches up with you - but he's already conceded himself that he's not the keeper he was, with the fitness he once had, but retiring from International Football.

There have been a few moments this season where he could have done better, where a keeper with just an extra couple of percent of agility, and extra split second of reaction time, would have prevented some of the goals we've conceded.

That's not to say he's poor, and just because he's made some saves doesn't make an excellent keeper anyway. Would a more agile keeper with quicker feet have stopped any of the goals today? Maybe, maybe not - but there's certainly been times this season where the answer to that is a definite yes.

That doesn't make him a poor keeper, it makes him a keeper that is on the decline, and as much as a fine servant that he has been, no player can play on and keep their abilities forever at the highest level.

For club that has ambitions for the Top 4 and CL qualification, you have to ask yourself the question, would he be number one for Tottenham, Arsenal, Man Utd - our direct rivals for the final Top 4 spot - and of course the answer to that is no, of course he wouldn't. He'd be a great signing for Wolves, Villa, Palace, and the next tier down though - but by our manager's own admission - we're meant to be Top 4 challengers this season - so it's not me personally that's put us in to the CL Qualifying team bracket, it's our manager himself. Would Areola? I think quite possibly - but of course you could say why did he go to Fulham, then us instead of one of those teams? Well the answer to that would obviously be you only get a move to a team if they're in the market at that very moment - but then we also have signings made in the last couple of years that would get in those teams, but I very much doubt we'd use the same methodology with them either, as Soucek, and Zouma, at the very least, would get in to our direct rivals sides right now, no question.

I don't think with Fab in goal, that we would have got through against Man City that wonderful night a couple of months ago. Areola was class in that game - and he had the look of a keeper that has just that little bit more ability than Fab - but again, that's not a criticism of Fab, and there's no shame in there being better players than you in your position.

If memory serves me, Fab has not yet put us in a position this season where his slight drop off in performance from his peak has cost us points - unlike his performance against Liverpool last season where he went full-on Roberto - so we've got away with it thus far as we've outscored the opposition - but once that happens, I could see Moyes sticking this new bloke in - maybe not next game, but not far down the line.

He has had more games this season where he has looked a little slow and a little rocky - like the striker, winger, defender that whilst still has some fantastic moments in a game, has lost that proverbial half a yard of pace.

We have a Number 2, whom in my opinion is the more agile, overall more rounded and better keeper than Fab. Saying that doesn't mean I think Fab is poor, rubbish or whatever other superlatives, nor does it mean Areola is the best thing since sliced bread.

It's a nice 'problem' for want of a better word, to have - and Areola's day will come pretty soon when he does become our main man between the sticks - but as I may have said once or twice before in this post - that doesn't make Fabianski poor, it means we've someone better, which is a good thing right?

Of course, I know there's no room for balance on here recently, with the perma-positives that won't hear any form of criticism levelled at our players, who then belittle and go down the 'Spursy' road, with self-awareness totally lost on them that they're just as bad as the perma-negatives that also go shouting down people.

There's a whole lot of middle ground to be had, and this forum would be such a nicer place if people didn't nail flags to the masts so often and be so black and white, whilst ignoring the grey.
Very good post, DL. With some strong arguments. :newthumb:

I think in some ways his decline is also testament to how far the club have come in such a short period. As if you keep improving, players who once looked the dog’s danglies will start to look more inferior when you move up a level. It’s only natural if the club continues to become stronger.

Before you know it, we’ll be saying that Declan Rice looks bang average! :D

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Re: Lukasz Fabianski signs

Post by Diogenes » Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:21 pm

You are right DL and, unfortunately for keepers, their concentration levels and reactions are what often declines first. However, the keeper is part of a defensive unit where trust is paramount and I believe that Fab still has that from his colleagues and the coaching staff. I rate Areola and believe he has the makings of a fine keeper, but wouldnt change the guard yet, particularly with the injuries piling up in defence. He will get plenty of further game time, I feel
in the cups and I do not think Fab's back will hold out for a whole season. Goalkeeper is probably one of only positions currently where we seem to have an excellent choice.

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